Before doing my flight training…
07-30-2022, 09:22 PM
#11
Occasional box hauler
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,804
No, common misconception. Anyone can get an R-ATP at age 21. That's separate from the reduced mins from mil and aviation college programs.
You can do part 61, get 1500 hours, and get an R-ATP at age 21.
Or do 141 university BS degree and get an R-ATP at 1000 hours at age 21.
You can do part 61, get 1500 hours, and get an R-ATP at age 21.
Or do 141 university BS degree and get an R-ATP at 1000 hours at age 21.
07-30-2022, 09:37 PM
#12
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,302
Everything we do in aviation is really about planning for failure. We plan every takeoff with an engine failure in mind. We do regular training with all manner of failures, from pressurization to electrical to instruments, navigation, etc. Being a pilot is all about handling events when Plan A doesn't work out. We'll go entire training events when we're continuously having some kind of abnormal condition, failure, or emergency; so much so that we hardly fly with everything working, in training, ever. Only during initial training. After that, it's all about preparing for something to occur. It's about all we train for, really...depressurization, flight control problems. electrical, landing gear, automation, engine fires, cargo fires, smoke in the cockpit or cabin, etc. We meticulously plan every takeoff with such in mind, and brief how we'll handle it when things do go awry.
It makes little sense to approach a career with any less vigilance. The old saw about santa clause and the faa rings true, albeit with fewer reindeer and no shotgun. We know we're gonna lose an engine. We know there's gonna be a downturn. We know that furloughs will occur. We don't get to choose when. Plan accordingly.
It makes little sense to approach a career with any less vigilance. The old saw about santa clause and the faa rings true, albeit with fewer reindeer and no shotgun. We know we're gonna lose an engine. We know there's gonna be a downturn. We know that furloughs will occur. We don't get to choose when. Plan accordingly.
07-31-2022, 07:03 AM
#13
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 17
By all means complete your training as expeditiously as able, but those who speak of no need for a "backup plan" are too new to the industry to understand reality. We are in a period of hiring activity. Some are calling it a "pilot shortage" (it is not), a term bantied about for decades now, and a condition which does not now exist, and has not previously existed. We do not have a pilot shortage. We have a period of hiring, or a "pilot's market." This will not last.
It's been rightly said and quoted that those who do not recall history may be headed there again, and given aviation's cyclical nature, if you're in the business very long, you'll see evolutions of hiring frenzy, and evolutions of furlough, bankruptcy, economic downturn, merger, layoff, etc. If one hasn't been in that position, one is either exceptionally lucky, or too new to understand. It will happen, and very likely, will happen to you.
The trend at the moment is more toward warm bodies and less toward qualifiers and checked boxes and discriminators such as a degree, but a degree is more than just a checked box; some actually end up using it. It's still preferred.
The hardest part of learning to fly is paying for it. This has always been the case, even in the day when I paid fifteen dollars an hour for an airplane (wet). Times change, but the basics don't, and that includes the economics of learning to fly; it's expensive. Entry level jobs such as regional airlines pay 500-800% better than they did a few years ago, and have sign-on and other bonuses, assistance for rotor pilots who lack fixed wing qualifications or experience, and other incentives. This is a vast improvement over the past, by orders of magnitude, but the lifestyle and income at today's cost of living is still intolerant of excess debt. Get your training done in the manner that you're able, be it while doing college, GI bill, etc.
When I learned to fly, it was made quite clear to me that flying is nice, but one must make a living; in my arena, every pilot was required to be a mechanic, and so I grew up, from my early teen years, an aircraft mechanic, as well as learning to fly. It's far from necessary to be a mechanic to fly airplanes; just certain types of jobs where it's a very big advantage if not an operational necessity. The point is that having additional skills, qualifications, and ability to earn a living may turn out to be very important when it comes to weathering the inevitable times when your flying job will be in jeopardy from any number of events which will happen as the industry cycles through hiring and furloughing, frenzy and stagnation, high and low, prosperity and shrinkage. It might be aviation maintenance, computers, or whatever else you can do and can earn a living doing, but most of us who have been around for very long understand that aviation is a dangerous basket in which to place all of ones eggs.
During a particular downturn, some years ago, I was furloughed. I found work almost immediately, turning wrenches in a small 135 operation's in-house shop. Over the coming days and weeks, as the furloughs rapidly spread, airline pilot after airline pilot stopped by the hangar to ask for work. When they found it was available, but would involve getting dirty and turning wrenches in the shop, they balked, turned up their noses and drifted away. It wasn't long before they came back, this time hat in hand, willing to take anything, but by then, the work was gone, and there was nothing to offer. The shop work led to doing some company charter and instruction, then work as a check airman, and building a training program. It paid the bills for my family, kept me current and kept me going. Many of my fellow furloughees went on unemployment, initially, which is something, but scarcely enough to feed a house cat. Aviation can be a great career with some high earning potential in the right arena, but it can also leave you high and dry; don't let the music stop without you having brought your own chair to the party.
It's been rightly said and quoted that those who do not recall history may be headed there again, and given aviation's cyclical nature, if you're in the business very long, you'll see evolutions of hiring frenzy, and evolutions of furlough, bankruptcy, economic downturn, merger, layoff, etc. If one hasn't been in that position, one is either exceptionally lucky, or too new to understand. It will happen, and very likely, will happen to you.
The trend at the moment is more toward warm bodies and less toward qualifiers and checked boxes and discriminators such as a degree, but a degree is more than just a checked box; some actually end up using it. It's still preferred.
The hardest part of learning to fly is paying for it. This has always been the case, even in the day when I paid fifteen dollars an hour for an airplane (wet). Times change, but the basics don't, and that includes the economics of learning to fly; it's expensive. Entry level jobs such as regional airlines pay 500-800% better than they did a few years ago, and have sign-on and other bonuses, assistance for rotor pilots who lack fixed wing qualifications or experience, and other incentives. This is a vast improvement over the past, by orders of magnitude, but the lifestyle and income at today's cost of living is still intolerant of excess debt. Get your training done in the manner that you're able, be it while doing college, GI bill, etc.
When I learned to fly, it was made quite clear to me that flying is nice, but one must make a living; in my arena, every pilot was required to be a mechanic, and so I grew up, from my early teen years, an aircraft mechanic, as well as learning to fly. It's far from necessary to be a mechanic to fly airplanes; just certain types of jobs where it's a very big advantage if not an operational necessity. The point is that having additional skills, qualifications, and ability to earn a living may turn out to be very important when it comes to weathering the inevitable times when your flying job will be in jeopardy from any number of events which will happen as the industry cycles through hiring and furloughing, frenzy and stagnation, high and low, prosperity and shrinkage. It might be aviation maintenance, computers, or whatever else you can do and can earn a living doing, but most of us who have been around for very long understand that aviation is a dangerous basket in which to place all of ones eggs.
During a particular downturn, some years ago, I was furloughed. I found work almost immediately, turning wrenches in a small 135 operation's in-house shop. Over the coming days and weeks, as the furloughs rapidly spread, airline pilot after airline pilot stopped by the hangar to ask for work. When they found it was available, but would involve getting dirty and turning wrenches in the shop, they balked, turned up their noses and drifted away. It wasn't long before they came back, this time hat in hand, willing to take anything, but by then, the work was gone, and there was nothing to offer. The shop work led to doing some company charter and instruction, then work as a check airman, and building a training program. It paid the bills for my family, kept me current and kept me going. Many of my fellow furloughees went on unemployment, initially, which is something, but scarcely enough to feed a house cat. Aviation can be a great career with some high earning potential in the right arena, but it can also leave you high and dry; don't let the music stop without you having brought your own chair to the party.
07-31-2022, 07:27 AM
#14
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 17
If you are going to graduate at the age of 21-22 years old, finish college and do your best to get flight training while doing so. Once graduated, attack your flight training full time with the goal of hitting 1500 hours by the time you turn 23. There isn’t a lot of point in dropping college for flight training when you can’t get an ATP until 23. This also avoids putting all your eggs in one basket, which as others have said is foolish. This plan is relatively low risk and at every step will leave you in a position to have career options instead of leaving you vulnerable to the vicissitudes of a volatile industry.
If you are already within 18 months of turning 23, I would consider Rickair’s throw caution to the wind and bet it all on the airlines’ pilot hiring binge. Don’t do this if you have family obligations. It’s not fair to them and would be a significant obstacle to making the sacrifices this route would entail. This option could leave you sitting pretty in a great career job or jobless with a mountain of debt. You are betting you can get your flight training, 1500 flight hours, and regional seasoning done before some calamity or natural economic cycles ends this hiring cycle.
Good luck regardless of your choice. This can be a rewarding career.
If you are already within 18 months of turning 23, I would consider Rickair’s throw caution to the wind and bet it all on the airlines’ pilot hiring binge. Don’t do this if you have family obligations. It’s not fair to them and would be a significant obstacle to making the sacrifices this route would entail. This option could leave you sitting pretty in a great career job or jobless with a mountain of debt. You are betting you can get your flight training, 1500 flight hours, and regional seasoning done before some calamity or natural economic cycles ends this hiring cycle.
Good luck regardless of your choice. This can be a rewarding career.
Thanks for the response, and thanks for wishing me good luck! I really appreciate this forum and the aviation industry. You are all incredibly helpful and I couldn't be happier with the advice I am receiving.
07-31-2022, 10:02 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 644
There's some good advice in here, and some advice from people who haven't been in your position for over 30 years, and when they were, the world was a very different place. Their pessimism is based on real experience, but following their advice may cause you to miss years of potential seniority and income. For perspective, I'm a regional pilot who started my flying career late because of the infamous "Lost Decade," and right now it's a feeding frenzy between the majors and regionals for pilots. It's actually a significant paycut for me to go to a major right now. The long and short of it is that there is a massive pilot shortage, you can expect about $70k/yr as a regional first officer the day you get 1,500 hours, and that pay will double in about 2 years as a regional captain, and go up even more when you get to the majors. You don't need a 4-year degree to get hired by the regionals, and it's a fading requirement for the legacies, so I'd personally use this information to reprioritize. Get flight training and 1,500 hours first, then finish your 'back-up plan' degree or skill online while you're making adult money as a regional pilot, so if the industry tanks in 20 years you have a way out. Flight training to be an airline pilot requires the money, time, independent responsibility, and dedication of most Master's programs, so it's not a side project.
The simplified back-story to the pilot shortage is that the airlines hired all of their pilots in the same 10-year span in the 80s to early 90s, back when the Air Force trained roughly 10k pilots a year, so there was an endless supply of trained pilots when the airlines did the majority of their hiring. Then those guys sat on those jobs (albeit with lots of bankruptcies and mergers) for 25-35 years, and because there were so few retirements for that period, the only time the airlines really hired was when the entire industry expanded to meet greater demand, so things like recessions and the FAA raising the retirement age from 60-65 completely stopped hiring for years on end. Nowadays, the Air Force trains about 1,200 per year and the Navy trains even less, but all of those 80s-era military-trained pilots are retiring, so the airlines have to replace them with civilian-trained pilots. However, the civilian training pipeline is 'right-sized' for a time when <1000 airline pilots were hired per year (most of which were military), hence the massive pilot shortage today that will likely continue for another ten years. The mandatory retirements are posted on this web site if you'd like to see the numbers. However, once this 10 year hiring period is over, there may be another 30 year dry spell where your seniority barely moves, hence the pressure to get hired by a legacy carrier as fast as possible.
My advice for preparing ahead of time is to research where you're going to do your training and don't let yourself get tied down to anything before you get your 1,500 hours. I got my CFI and spent a decent amount of time around general aviation at a mom and pop school and maybe 1 in 100 students ever made it to an airline, even with the path clearly laid out in front of them. They all had the potential, they just treated it like a side project/hobby. Then, once you get your ratings If you have a kid, buy a house, get married to someone who can't or won't support your endeavor, hell, even getting a dog, you'll severely stunt your career unless you can get reaalllllyy lucky by finding a good, low-time commercial job, locally. If you're willing to move 2,000 miles to live in a busted old RV in the desert to fly skydivers you're going to get your 1500 much quicker than if you're only willing to take a part time job at the two closest airports to your house.
There are also lots of pitfalls with civilian flight schools. I've seen flight schools where the owners had massive egos and would scream at anyone who tried to constructively point out their mistakes then push incorrect information, I've seen flight schools where the CFIs milk students for money, just sitting in the right seat going on airplane rides, giving their students minimal guidance to purposely drag out their training, I know of someone whose flight school shut it's doors and siphoned all of their students' money into an account in the Cook Islands, I've definitely seen flight schools with cowboy CFIs who do not prepare students to be safe private pilots, much less rule-following airline pilots. So the lessons learned are to watch out for a flight school with toxic management, ensure they have a good syllabus and ensure you know how you're progressing after each flight, and don't give a flight school too much money up front unless it's a well-established ATP school or something. I'd also recommend doing your flight training in a sunbelt state, if possible, because you won't be able to fly in the winter up North. Part 141 schools are better for airline pilots because good programs (keep in mind that not all 141 programs are 'good') are well-organized and present information in a logical manner. Flying is such a broad topic that you can aimlessly study for days and learn little of value. Look for schools with lots of good online reviews and gather as much information as possible. I did my training in the military, but based on the guys I've flown with, universities (associates and bachelors) seem to do the best job of getting people 0 to hero. From what I've heard, the ATP school is a degree mill, a lot of CFIs there don't care, but it's a known quantity and it'll get you the training they promise as long as you can keep up. Mom and pop schools are cheaper, but tend to be less organized wild cards that take significantly longer. They're fine if you want a PPL and maybe an instrument rating for a hobby, but they won't get you to an airline nearly and they're not typically run by people who know anything about the airline world.
Games like Flight Sim have gotten much better, but they're still games, so they do have value, but they can have negative transfer without frequent real flight time to put things in perspective. There's an endless supply of Youtube videos, and I find a lot of them annoying, endless self-promoting with very little value, but I did consistently think that BoldMethod had good products, both free and payware. If you enjoy watching flying stuff on YouTube because it's interesting to you, that's great, but realize that without a syllabus and targeted studying, you're just taking a break with YouTube videos. Treat every flight lesson like it's a test, not a lesson. You shouldn't be learning much, you should be demonstrating your skills and there may be some finer details that you didn't translate correctly from the text. CFIs will not mind building more flight time explaining to you how to do things you should've already learned in the reading, but it'll take you three times longer to get your ratings. Flying should be fun, but it should be business first. If you're not hitting flight school with that intensity it'll cost you time and money. Having said that, have fun where you can. Do your solo cross countries to cool places, take a second during low workload times to look around you and soak in what you're doing. If you have a CFI whose dragging you down, that's as good a reason as any to look for a new CFI. I've met plenty of prior-CFIs who would suck the fun out of everything and you need every ounce of motivation you can get to perform your best. You learn better from positive experiences, so having a negative CFI will slow you down if your performance doesn't warrant negative feedback. Finally, there really is no such thing as a 'great pilot.' There are only pilots who meet all the standards, and bad pilots. Having said that, learning how to meet all the standards is a long long road, and like any other profession, the harder you work and push your limits, the quicker you'll get there. Conversely, you can half-ass it for years on end and not make any progress. Good luck.
The simplified back-story to the pilot shortage is that the airlines hired all of their pilots in the same 10-year span in the 80s to early 90s, back when the Air Force trained roughly 10k pilots a year, so there was an endless supply of trained pilots when the airlines did the majority of their hiring. Then those guys sat on those jobs (albeit with lots of bankruptcies and mergers) for 25-35 years, and because there were so few retirements for that period, the only time the airlines really hired was when the entire industry expanded to meet greater demand, so things like recessions and the FAA raising the retirement age from 60-65 completely stopped hiring for years on end. Nowadays, the Air Force trains about 1,200 per year and the Navy trains even less, but all of those 80s-era military-trained pilots are retiring, so the airlines have to replace them with civilian-trained pilots. However, the civilian training pipeline is 'right-sized' for a time when <1000 airline pilots were hired per year (most of which were military), hence the massive pilot shortage today that will likely continue for another ten years. The mandatory retirements are posted on this web site if you'd like to see the numbers. However, once this 10 year hiring period is over, there may be another 30 year dry spell where your seniority barely moves, hence the pressure to get hired by a legacy carrier as fast as possible.
My advice for preparing ahead of time is to research where you're going to do your training and don't let yourself get tied down to anything before you get your 1,500 hours. I got my CFI and spent a decent amount of time around general aviation at a mom and pop school and maybe 1 in 100 students ever made it to an airline, even with the path clearly laid out in front of them. They all had the potential, they just treated it like a side project/hobby. Then, once you get your ratings If you have a kid, buy a house, get married to someone who can't or won't support your endeavor, hell, even getting a dog, you'll severely stunt your career unless you can get reaalllllyy lucky by finding a good, low-time commercial job, locally. If you're willing to move 2,000 miles to live in a busted old RV in the desert to fly skydivers you're going to get your 1500 much quicker than if you're only willing to take a part time job at the two closest airports to your house.
There are also lots of pitfalls with civilian flight schools. I've seen flight schools where the owners had massive egos and would scream at anyone who tried to constructively point out their mistakes then push incorrect information, I've seen flight schools where the CFIs milk students for money, just sitting in the right seat going on airplane rides, giving their students minimal guidance to purposely drag out their training, I know of someone whose flight school shut it's doors and siphoned all of their students' money into an account in the Cook Islands, I've definitely seen flight schools with cowboy CFIs who do not prepare students to be safe private pilots, much less rule-following airline pilots. So the lessons learned are to watch out for a flight school with toxic management, ensure they have a good syllabus and ensure you know how you're progressing after each flight, and don't give a flight school too much money up front unless it's a well-established ATP school or something. I'd also recommend doing your flight training in a sunbelt state, if possible, because you won't be able to fly in the winter up North. Part 141 schools are better for airline pilots because good programs (keep in mind that not all 141 programs are 'good') are well-organized and present information in a logical manner. Flying is such a broad topic that you can aimlessly study for days and learn little of value. Look for schools with lots of good online reviews and gather as much information as possible. I did my training in the military, but based on the guys I've flown with, universities (associates and bachelors) seem to do the best job of getting people 0 to hero. From what I've heard, the ATP school is a degree mill, a lot of CFIs there don't care, but it's a known quantity and it'll get you the training they promise as long as you can keep up. Mom and pop schools are cheaper, but tend to be less organized wild cards that take significantly longer. They're fine if you want a PPL and maybe an instrument rating for a hobby, but they won't get you to an airline nearly and they're not typically run by people who know anything about the airline world.
Games like Flight Sim have gotten much better, but they're still games, so they do have value, but they can have negative transfer without frequent real flight time to put things in perspective. There's an endless supply of Youtube videos, and I find a lot of them annoying, endless self-promoting with very little value, but I did consistently think that BoldMethod had good products, both free and payware. If you enjoy watching flying stuff on YouTube because it's interesting to you, that's great, but realize that without a syllabus and targeted studying, you're just taking a break with YouTube videos. Treat every flight lesson like it's a test, not a lesson. You shouldn't be learning much, you should be demonstrating your skills and there may be some finer details that you didn't translate correctly from the text. CFIs will not mind building more flight time explaining to you how to do things you should've already learned in the reading, but it'll take you three times longer to get your ratings. Flying should be fun, but it should be business first. If you're not hitting flight school with that intensity it'll cost you time and money. Having said that, have fun where you can. Do your solo cross countries to cool places, take a second during low workload times to look around you and soak in what you're doing. If you have a CFI whose dragging you down, that's as good a reason as any to look for a new CFI. I've met plenty of prior-CFIs who would suck the fun out of everything and you need every ounce of motivation you can get to perform your best. You learn better from positive experiences, so having a negative CFI will slow you down if your performance doesn't warrant negative feedback. Finally, there really is no such thing as a 'great pilot.' There are only pilots who meet all the standards, and bad pilots. Having said that, learning how to meet all the standards is a long long road, and like any other profession, the harder you work and push your limits, the quicker you'll get there. Conversely, you can half-ass it for years on end and not make any progress. Good luck.
08-01-2022, 06:35 AM
#16
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,225
Don’t expect to be part of this hiring wave.
This is cyclical, basic economics, pork cycle.
Everyone starts training when the market is hyped. How long does it take to fly 1500hrs?
Exactly 1500 hrs and that’s pretty much two years if you do this full time.
Barely any meaningful difference between 1200-1500 hrs. So start today and eligible for hire by a 121 Regional in 2 years.
Nobody can accurately predict what the market will be like in 2 years. We may be in a 2008-09 global economic downturn for all we know.
Quitting college to try and ride the current wave is not a smart thing to do.
What is smart is making sure that you’re to hit 1500 hrs when you finish college.
That means part time training, work as a CFI or go to a college with an aviation program.
You are too late for the current wave.
This is cyclical, basic economics, pork cycle.
Everyone starts training when the market is hyped. How long does it take to fly 1500hrs?
Exactly 1500 hrs and that’s pretty much two years if you do this full time.
Barely any meaningful difference between 1200-1500 hrs. So start today and eligible for hire by a 121 Regional in 2 years.
Nobody can accurately predict what the market will be like in 2 years. We may be in a 2008-09 global economic downturn for all we know.
Quitting college to try and ride the current wave is not a smart thing to do.
What is smart is making sure that you’re to hit 1500 hrs when you finish college.
That means part time training, work as a CFI or go to a college with an aviation program.
You are too late for the current wave.
08-01-2022, 08:51 AM
#17
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,406
I disagree. Even if we have a recession-induced slowdown or intermission in the middle, the wave will stick keep on going through the end of the decade. After 2030 there are STILL a lot of retirements compared to times past.
I'm pretty confidant that someone starting today, who is very aggressive in punching the tickets, could get a legacy or good major job within 4-6 years and still have a little wave left over.
I agree there's no time to waste, but it's not quite too late.
I'm pretty confidant that someone starting today, who is very aggressive in punching the tickets, could get a legacy or good major job within 4-6 years and still have a little wave left over.
I agree there's no time to waste, but it's not quite too late.
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