LAfrequentflyer

Buddy,

Build your time by CFI work. You'll be doing yourself and the profession a favor. Not to mention the skills (flying, CRM, and leadership) you'll learn by teaching / learning from your students...Yes, learning from your students - i've passed on a few things to my CFIs over the years...I've learned a lot from them - both by what they said and did and things by what they didn't say and do...You'll miss out on that opportunity and be out 30K...

-LA

capto

I understand you're just trying to build time, but there are other ways to do it. Problem is that once you build your hours and try to get a decent job there wont be any thanks to these places which are contributing to the problems we have. Put yourself in the place of management. Why would you pay your pilots a good salary when there are others out there willing to work for free? Also take into consideration that places like these drive real airlines out of business, by offering ship airfares since they don't have to pay their flight crews. Look for other ways to meet minimums for example: flight instructing, banner towing, crop duster, sight seen, traffic watch, taking skydivers. Make friends at the airport ask everyone for a job, eventually you'll find something. Invest your money in your college education. Airlines not only look at your hours.

nick@FL350

Thanks LAfrequentflyer and CAPTO for the information.
I am not sure if it's because I am still young in aviation and don't have the confidence to teach someone how to fly, when I am still learning myself (just doesn't seem right to me). I understand that aviation is a never ending learning process, but not sure if I would be the greatest instructor. Can you please reflect your thoughts/ experience before you went for the instructors ratings and the feelings after you completed the certificate?
Also, where would I get information on the traffic watch program?

Thank you,

-Nick

LAfrequentflyer

I don't have any rating beyond PPL, and less than 200 hours...However, when i embark on aviation as a career I'll be going the CFI route after my training...You don't know something unless you can teach it...I've been involved with IT / telecommunications for over 15 years and learned more those minutes/hours/days/weeks I was working as a school house instructor/shift supervisor / training NCO or just putting together a training plan for the rest of my shop on a piece of equipment or new testing procedure...When you teach you have to know your stuff cold - its a credibility issue, someone is counting on you to know what you are doing so they can feel comfortable when they try to learn by your actions/inputs...Your student has to know his teacher knows what they are talking about...If you don't know something - you need to say you don't know - research it - and get the answer for the student...You'll learn more about yourself and the subject matter teaching than you ever will in groundschool or in the psychologists office...

You'll gain that experience and confidence as you teach...No one is born with the confidence and knowledge to get out there and start teaching...Get your CFI / instruments CFI on SE/ME and then you'll start to develop as a pilot and really learn about aviation...

-LA

capto

Trust yourself never say I can't. If you can't teach others to fly once you get your flight instructor ratings how can you expect to upgrade to the left seat were you'll be in charge of leading the crew of an airliner.

Start searching for jobs online:
http://forums.airlinepilotcentral.co...ead.php?t=1303

Remember ask around the local airports.

Another good idea is to start in an airline at a no flying position, after all you have college degree put it to use. There are plenty of good jobs at the airlines for professionals. Eventually with time and effort you'll have your time and make it into the cockpit, most important you'll get paid for flying.

capto

This one seems pretty good:
http://www.climbto350.com/climbto350...jobs_board.cfm

Remember look for something like banner tow, traffic watch, also look for non flying positions at the airlines they can open up some good opportunities.

Good Luck!

nick@FL350

Thanks Capto-

Where would I look for more research on traffic watch in southern california? How do they pay their employes? Reason I ask is because I own a fraction of a piper cherokee and would be interested in using it to my benefit before I sell my portion. Thanks so much

FlyerJosh

nick,

One of the largest parts of being an instructor is "not knowing"... although it is often joked that the CFI is God, the very best instructors are the ones who are willing to admit "I don't know it... let's look it up".

You will learn more about aviation and flying in your first 3 months of teaching, than you do during your entire time at ERAU (I know... I went to UND and learned more over a summer of teaching than my entire degree). Teaching is THE ABSOLUTE BEST WAY to study and prepare for an airline interview. And trust me, you will learn and be the most proficient pilot that you ever will be when you instruct. Since I went to the airlines, my flying skills have decreased significantly (simply due to automation and lact of use).

Don't sell yourself (or the profession) short, by whoring yourself you and working for free (and that's exactly what it is). To be perfectly honest, it can actually work against you... We recently hired a contract pilot to fly our corporate jet- Of all of the candidates we interviewed, one of them was willing to work for free/very cheap and the other had done so in the past flying a jet. Needless to say, we eliminated them from the competition. Why?

Simply because we feel that a well trained pilot is AN ASSET. Why would I want to hire somebody that is willing to undercut my salary? It hurts my job security, and makes a statement about how committed that person might be (whats to keep him/her from jumping ship if that better offer comes along?).

There are plenty of options. Fly traffic watch, tow banners, fly sightseeing tours, instruct, fly with friends/split time, take some of the money you're thinking about spending for bogus time at Gulfstream and rent a plane... have fun- fly to the other coast with a friend... fly as a safety pilot, join the Civil Air Patrol, put together a resume and mail it to all corners of the earth. Work as an intern at an airline, or get a job at the local FBO working the desk to make aviation contacts.

Most importantly, NETWORK! Get to know the pilots at your local airport. Talk to airline pilots, corporate pilots, cargo haulers. Carry your resume and business card around, and dress professionally when you meet people. Ask for airplane tours. Arrange to visit local flight departments. Ask online for job openings and opportunites, you'll find a lot of people that are willing to help. Most people out there that fly professionally can usually give you a job lead, or knows somebody that can.

Whatever you do though, don't sell yourself short, just because "it's a stepping stone, and only for a few months"... that opens the door for a few months to become a few years, and before you know it, you're 40 years old, making $25,000/year flying a 120 passenger airliner under code share agreements for 8 different airlines, with 8 days a month at home. Sounds fun, huh?

Not to use the old cliche, but be patient and pay your dues... believe it or not, flying for a living requires experience and dedication. There's no easy way to get there (and any paths that seem too good to be true, probably are). Stick with it, work the contacts and keep building the time... with the turbine you have, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting on with a regional before too much longer.

nick@FL350

Thanks FlyerJosh -

You are pretty much left me the nicest response here. It seems like some people have a chip on their shoulder here. It's not that I'm willing to sell myself for free. I am just a very eager and motivated guy who wants to get where you guys are now. In my eyes there is absolutely nothing wrong with a person who wants to suceed.

FlyerJosh

There's nothing wrong with being motivated and eager to succeed, but remember that success doesn't come overnight, or by selling your soul to the devil...

It might seem logical to offer your services for free (I mean after all, flight time is a form of compensation right? At least as far as the FAA is concerned). But, sometimes you have to look beyond the here and now. Ask yourself where you want to be in ten years and what attracts you to aviation.

Be honest. Regardless of whether or not you have a deep love of aviation, I'm sure that you also were at least lured to flying by the stories of big paychecks and lots of days off. Unfortunately, the trend of the industry over the past 3-4 years is downward. Companies use the "eagerness and motivation to advance" of younger, less experienced pilots against established pilots. It works too, simply because the younger pilots don't know any better. ALPA has done a **** poor job of helping educate the issue and an even worse job of trying to enforce some sort of minimum standard for pay and work rules. (But I digress...)

Pay your dues- nothing in aviation comes easily or cheaply... That doesn't mean that you can't get a big break (I was hired with less than 700TT/65ME into the CRJ in 2000). But big breaks take work in some form or another. It often requires impressing people, networking, and busting your butt to get a shot... and then not screwing up when the opportunity to impress comes. With more experience the opportunites become more frequent...

If a break comes along, by all means take it (if anybody gives you **** about jumping onto a LEGITAMITE opportunity, ask them if they would have done the same thing if in your shoes).

But until then, work on your patience and ask for help (coming to this board is a good place to start). Before you know it, somebody will come calling...