awesymoto

Hello all,

1st post here , anyways I am in New Zealand but live in the USA and wanted to do some training flights in a DA 42 here to get the PIC hours for MEI in the states but was confused about how to log the time.

Here is what I came up with, though correct me if I'm wrong:

As far as logging dual its good to go 61.41 as New Zealand is part of ICAO so from the regs logging dual:
61.41
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. Which NZ is part of ICAO
and
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States. meaning they are authorized to give training in New Zealand (current etc...)

As far as logging PIC then under 61.51 "sole manipulator of controls" statement there is nothing requiring the aircraft to be registered in the USA, flown in the USA etc.

So what I interpret is I can log it just as in the states, dual and PIC if i go for a dual flight here, please anybody that has flown down under or abroad let me know if I'm far off base or got it.

JohnBurke

Your post is a bit confusing, but let me see if I understand. You are temporarily in New Zealand and want to log some time with an instructor while there. You do not state your level of pilot certification, which adds to the confusion, but presumably you hold a multi engine rating on a US pilot certificate (Airplane, Multi-Engine Land), and you are private pilot or higher.

If this is correct, then you may log PIC in a multi-engine airplane. You may act as PIC of a US-registered airplane, but may be restricted from acting as PIC of a New Zealand registered airplane, which appears to be why you are seeking flight instruction or the accompaniment of a flight instructor.

The New Zealand flight instructor who does not hold a US Instructor certificate (CFI) can endorse your logbook for the training given, but cannot endorse your logbook for training toward any US certificate or rating.

A key point here is the difference between logging pilot in command (PIC), and acting as PIC (being the pilot in command). You may legally log the time as PIC if you're rated and sole manipulator, but may not act as pilot in command, or in other words, be the person responsible for the safe outcome of the flight, or the final authority for operation of that flight. You are also subject to all New Zealand air legislation regarding the operation of the flight, handling of the flight controls, etc.

This is on the assumption that your pilot certification is FAA certification, and that you do not hold pilot privileges in New Zealand. Your post did not specifiy.

The FAA does look on flight instruction, and one acting as an authorized flight instructor, as being given when one is being taught something. In other words, a dual sign-off, or an endorsement for instruction given (or received) is not for logging time, but for actually giving and receiving instruction. The regulation does not specify that it must be instruction toward a certificate or rating, and could be on any subject or function, from flying an approach to conducting a flight in New Zealand airspace, but instruction logged must be for the purpose of receiving instruction (not just for the sake of logging).

In this case, you are logging time as pilot in command, and if you are rated in the airplane (FAA private pilot or higher, with Airplane, Multi-Engine Land), you do not need an instructor endorsement in order to log. The instructor presence is only required to be legal in New Zealand, as you do not hold pilot privileges in a foreign registered airplane, in a different country. Yes, you may log pilot time in such an airplane, but may not act as a required crew member. The restriction against acting as a required crewmember rests on the recognition of your pilot certification by New Zealand, in this case, because the FAA does not stipulate that you can or cannot operate a foreign aircraft: the FAA's privileges and authority only extends as far as FAA registered aircraft. FAA regulation also governs your actions as a pilot in exercising the privileges of your pilot certificate.

What this boils down to is that whomever flies with you, whether an instructor or a local pilot, is exercising the privileges of their New Zealand pilot certificate, and is acting as PIC; it could be a local private pilot, and your manipulation of the flight controls is what enables you to log the time, as opposed to an instructor endorsement. I am specific about this because it appears from your post that you're seeking to "build time" and may be seeking to have that time validated by a flight instructor. It's not necessary to have an instructor validate your logbook, if you're already rated in the airplane (Airplane, Multi-Engine Land) with a private pilot certificate or higher.

Because you didn't specify your qualifications (FAA certification vs. New Zealand, level of pilot certificate, rating, etc), none of this applies if you don't hold FAA pilot certification, and everything must be done in accordance with New Zealand regulation.

If you do fly with someone other than a flight instructor, while you're acting as sole manipulator of the controls (and thus logging PIC), you should still specify in the remarks in your logbook who the pilot was and that you were sole manipulator to remove any question of how the flight was conducted. This is not a legal requirement, but could eliminate confusion at a later date.

awesymoto

John,

Sorry for the bit of confusion. I am FAA CMEL with instrument rated, and am not CAA rated in NZ. I have to fly with a NZ flight instructor as it’s Massey University’s bird similar to any other large flight school.

I understand acting and logging PIC, obviously I don’t have a NZ CAA pilot certification so I can’t act as the PIC for the flight but may log if sole manipulator of the controls.

I would like to log it as dual because 1. It is dual as I’ll be flying with a CFI here (technically a FI, CFI is only for chief flight instructor but semantics) and 2. I don’t want the time logged as PIC w/o dual and then get into how I logged that if I can’t be acting as a PIC in NZ when I go for my 25 hour req for ATP here in the states. The tail numbers here are already eyebrow raising to a DPE as “MTS” just 3 letters.

Thanks for the reply, I think we’re on the same page though correct me if I’m wrong.

JohnBurke

Nope, I believe you're good to go.

hotelcc

G'day,

On this related subject, another question about logging flight time, specifically PIC time, outside the USA.

We know that we can log "sole manipulator PIC" if we are rated for the aircraft and sole manipulator, even if we aren't acting PIC.

Say I was a foreign (using the NZ example) PPL licensed pilot, doing a dual navigation/XC exercise with a NZ instructor in NZ. I am the sole manipulator but the instructor is "acting PIC".

If I was to then later on, apply for a FAA ATP (or other FAA certificate), would I be able to count those flights towards the PIC requirement under 61.51 "sole manipulator PIC"?

My interpretation is yes, given 61.51 does not stipulate that the flight must be conducted in the US or under a FAA licence. But I can't find a specific answer and wanted to see if anyone else had any experience here.

Thanks everyone.