TexasLonghorn

What fleets and programs are you using for your projections based on what might occur based on a non-definitive, non-binding pilot call? DRL? How many days worked are necessary to make those numbers?

Why are you including the 18K in years where it won't be paid out? You won't see 18K years 1 or 2, even if it's 'earned' those years. You seem to account for that when you talk about the bonus payouts of only having been paid 12 years of pay at year 14, so why include it in the first two years?

Why do you think they didn't include full pay scales during the call so you could reference year 14 instead of year 15?

followingdreams

Ok, I love this, I finally post figures, totally being fair (Obviously I prefer Flex, even if I am making less than at NJ because of the NJ pilots I have met, but my figures are not biased)....So here are DIRECT answers to your questions.....Now you will nit pick these answers until you can say "Flex isnt awful" just like I say about NJ, we are argueing about the difference between Delta and United, either place is a good place to end up. I prefer Flex, you dont, its ok with me, I DONT CARE.

I did post in 5 years but I assumed AT BOTH COMPANIES you would be an CA after 2, are you saying NJ wont upgrade you in 2 years? I used 5 yr CA/CA in my comparison. But since you asked, based on your payscale it would take you to year 10 as an FO to pass what an FO at Flex makes. If the FLex scale doesnt increase, it doesnt mattter its still greater than NJ until year 10! If you are are career FO, Flex makes it very clear, they want to hire CA, if NJ wants to hire careeer FOs, definitely go there and enjoy making more money than Flex after being a 10yr FO.

Umm so you will base it on the old number prior to this latest contract because that is not in effect today. Flex has not made it official but they would also look really bad to put out a number that doesnt turn out to be accurate. I choose to trust them, if you dont, then thats OK.

So now you dont want me to not count bonuses that have been earned. A certain salary has been offered, that could change, that is life in any profession. So you are saying we shouldnt use that? Ill tell you this, when that bonus disappears, Ill stop using it but as of today its part of our compensation. I get it, the numbers arent as big of a differnece as you thought so now you are trying to nitpick. There is no saying today theat when NJ contract is up, they wont cut your pay, so what do I figure for your income??? Maybe your parents coddled you too much but let me be the bearer of bad news....no one owes you anything! On one hand you dont want me to count current bonuses, on the otherhand you dont want me to count proposed income. Boy that sounds desperate to prove a point. Why not just say "Dont use anything that proves me wrong!"

Maybe not Capital Grills but most places either have that, Ruth Chris, Flemings or some local steak house, fish house, sushi restaurant, either way I dont care, I know when I get to the hotel, the company will buy me dinner (Breakfast, Lunch) WHATEVER I would like and I typically enjoy it very much!

My $30 is for me under the highest level of healthcare (whatever that is), my kids are grown and have their own. My union dues are zero, what are yours? And what is your requirement to throw on a blazer and walk the picket line with your kid saying how unsafe your pilots are (when you are under contract)?

This is getting stupid, if you are a NJ fan, way dont you frequent their forum, if you come over here just to trash Flex because it makes you feel that you are better (which quite frankly is the attitude of TOO many of your pilots to anyone), move along. I have said, NJ is better in some circumstances, Flex in others, of the 2, I prefer Flex, you clearly dont. Its OK, you dont need to trash us so you feel better (except its what makes you feel better). Peace and Love, we are all doing OK!

followingdreams

I mean really between the two of you, you ask for figures and then you question them, did I question your figures? You asked me to read my iPad and I did. Its pretty simple, I explained everything and was completely unbiased. I dont care if I (or anyone else) would make more money at NJ, as these attacks keep coming from NJ supporters, it makes NJ look desperate. I prefer flex even if it means making less money, however as we see, the difference is not that great and maybe even leaning toward flex (certainley in the early years where there is a big differnce between making $105k and $160k).

Nothing in this world is difinitive, including NJ contract that expires in a few years. No one know what would/could happen, we deal with what we have been told, again, I get it, it doesnt fit your naritive however the company made this same promise on the 1-3 year payscale and it came to fruition. I have no reason to doubt it. If you do, then that is a you problem. Before NJ contract they were still saying their pay was better than Flex, they had no clue what they would get.....

$18k in years it wont be paid out.....maybe you are bad at math, maybe you are just an angry pilot who wants to criticize before verifying. If you do the SIMPLE math, and as I said, I am being completely fair and transparent. the $215k number is only counting 12 years (since 2 years have not been paid out).... Yes it was earned in year 1 and 2, I didnt use it (which actually I did) but if you left at year 14 (without retiring) you would walk way from years 13 and 14 so really THOSE are the years I didnt count. If you retired after year 14, you would still be paid the $36k owed and since this is a long term income discussion, it would make sense to include it, however I still didnt. Again, I get it, doesnt fit your narative and you didnt expect anyone to call you out on it.

As far as fleets, as you know FO pay is the same regarless of fleet, CA pay is based on small cabin as was your math. Again, I get it, you didnt get the math you were expecting, Im sorry.

Why I didnt use year 14 (which I did, just using the year 15 increase) was because the powerpoint used 10, 15, 20, 25 years. Sorry they didnt use EVERY year but they didnt, its why I didnt use the 10 year increase (which was greater) and instead used the 15yr increase which was FAR less than 10. If they had given every year you would be asking why didnt you use year 13.5....I mean come on.

For those of you considering both companies, why dont you go ot the NJ message board and see 1. How many of their pilots complain about their company. 2. How many Flex pilots are over there trying to tell you how bad NJ is. Then look at the Flex message board, how many CURRENT pilots are bashing the company, and how many NJ pilots (and former Flex pilots who cant figure out how to order from doordash) are trying to tell you how bad Flex is. It says a lot.

So I have answered EVERY question with complete honesty, I dont care if you prefer NJ over Flex, both are the top of this 91k/135 world and you would do well to work at either. There is no CLEAR winner (despite what they want you to believe), it depends on what you want. Do you want your compensation to be predicated on soft pay or would you rather have the salary? (soft pay you CAN make more money...if you plane doesnt breakdown with NJ). I prefer the company culture at Flex, its one mans opinion, make your own.

At this point I hope we can all go back to our regularly scheduled program (however I have a feeling we wont!)

Peace and love to you all!

Deserthusker

Wow. All I asked for was actual numbers. Talk about going off the handle. Try to leave the emotion out, all I am asking for is information. You say based on my numbers it takes until year 10 for an NJ FO to make more. How can I believe you when you only posted numbers for year one and two. It’s not hard, follow my format that I posted before. Year 1,3, 5, 10, 14( highest we go). One line for FO, one line for Capt. I believe the reason you don’t post what the numbers will be in five years is because those numbers don’t increase. Am I correct?

I didn’t say don’t post your $18k bonus. I said be aware that it can go away. You obviously haven’t been there long enough to remember how your boss took all your bonuses and wrote you all IOUs for you salary past what was it 10 days of work while shutting down all but 9 of your bases. You have previous co workers that are trying to tell you to get a clue and you won’t listen. Talk about a coddled child that is throwing a fit when he doesn’t get his way.

To address why I am “trashing flex
to make myself feel better”. You have stated that flex compensation is better and NJ retirement is better. I have stated that I think initial flex compensation is better but after a couple years NJ is better. If you would provide actual numbers as I proposed I think it would clear it up.

I get that you are not a fan of unions. My union dues are 1%. $30 for one person for medical at flex. I doubt it is $30 for each additional family member but it wouldn’t take much for someone with a family at flex to pay more for medical than a NJ pilot pays in union fees. We have also received 2 dues refunds in the little over 5 years I have been on property. Pretty sure your insurance isnt giving you back money.

I think the reason you feel NJ pilots might act like they are better than flex pilots is because before you flex had a union. They chose to vote it out. NJ pilots tried to help your pilots keep it. Something that would have been good for both groups but they refused. You keep saying flex and NJ are the United’s and deltas of the fractional. How do you think United would be treated by the other majors if they de unionized? If you are paying attention the majors are actually trending towards using the same union.

IMaFracGOD

For ******s sake you two
Here's numbers

SIC day rate:

YR 1 - $751
YR 2-15 - $785


​​​​​​DRL PIC daily rate:

1 - $784
2 - $ 853
3 - $925
4 - $933
5- - $940
6- $948
7- $955
8 - $963
9 - $970
10 - $1078
11 - $1106
12 - $1135
13 - $1163
14 - $ $1191
15 - $1219
16 - $ 1247
17 - $1275
18 - $1303

After yr 18 DRL PIC get 2.5% hire date longevity

No day rates published yet but from Ricci's presentation he says this:
D Doesn't say how many days worked to make this yrly salary they gave

No change yrs 1-5 doesn't show yrs 6-9, says yr 10 goes from $314,060 to $358,600
Yr 15 $342,160 to $373,600
Yr 20&25 $353,710 to $378,600

These are #'s from his slide presentation
These are the only #'s they have provided so far
They do not say at all how those #'s are derived. What exactly they are all counting to make those #'s

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hawkerpilot05

I would just add one thing, under the RLA, contracts never expire. They become amenable only if both sides agree to it. So, they could never cut pay and benefits at NetJets unless the pilots voted it in outside of the bankruptcy process. In our current market, you could easily say that there is very little value in a union. However, the union is there when the market changes. Best to have the protections codified into a CBA.

Deserthusker

Hey thanks for posting those numbers. I can see why he is not in a hurry to share them and has to cherry pick what he posts. Hopefully those numbers they are preposing are for the same amount of days worked. It is suspect that they didnt provide a daily rate. It’s sad that he doesn’t treat the whole pilot group the same and has to play games instead of the same percentage increase for everyone.
I guess his paid parking and steaks for dinner is enough to make him think it’s a better option for him.

IMaFracGOD

I would say that Ricci is including everything: Day rate at maybe 185 days a yr, full bonus, max 401K contribution and max company match, max $18K extra yr deferred "401K", per diem
Why, because at the top of the payscale, I did not W2 $353,710. More like just a p**sy hairy over $300

followingdreams

Oh silly wabbit....

Why didnt you include year 2 in your calculations? I did what someone could likely expect which is a fair estimate. YES there are no raises from year 3-10 but if that is what you want to hang your "NJ is better" rant on, then I question your mental acuity and your ability to actually hold a First Class Medical Certificate. You do understand, as I said, it take 10yrs as an FO at NJ to reach the pay of a Flex First officer. So you somehow think its better to start at $105k and slowly get raises every year until year 10 where you end up at $167k vs. STARTING year 1 at $156k year 2 163k, year 3 $163k and it stays there for the next 10 years (this does not include the $18k per year bonus)?

Lets see how quick you will answer this question, as a 10 full year FO at NJ what will be your TOTAL hard pay? Here is what Flex would be........$1,623,000.......

Ill sit here and wait for your response to a very simple question. Please count on your toes if you need to.

flyitfast

It's based on 202 days a year. And I grossed just over shade $330k as a topped out captain as well.