Adlerdriver

Well, that should take care of that. I'm guessing the LOA and contractual changes should be finished the end of the week. Perfect.

whalesurfer

Thanks for the clarification Skypine, it definitely makes more sense.

Still, 3 years versus almost 16 years to the left seat makes me believe a new hire would be better off at FDX? Our new TA rates (if the TA passes) will probably make this advantage you guys have somewhat less noticeable. However, when you include B-plan contributions in the overall compensation package I think FDX still leads for someone trying to make his/her decision on which airline to choose.

Didn't mean to butt into your discussion on single pay rates but since you're all using ups as a comparison I figured I'd mention a positive aspect of your system.

FTFF

Brown newhires will reach 50% seniority in 9 years, 33% in 12 yrs, and by year 16 they will be in the top 16% according to the IPA seniority analysis tool (using 63 as avg retirement age for realism). Upgrade time is relative to when one gets hired.

PurpleToolBox

No I don't have an unrealistic idea of the power of my own seniority. This really isn't about me ... well perhaps since I can now hold 757CA.

The guys arguing with me don't seem to understand that there are two methods of generating pay for pilots; one based on size of aircraft (ALPA), one based on a flat pay scale (UPS). We have neither. And our system is not the best of the two. It generates lots of problems for us and the company.

Some of you believe it's perfectly fine for a CA at FDX to exercise his seniority but he must take a pay cut because he chooses to fly the 757 and be home every night/day. I would argue, that is probably one of the single greatest factors of QOL. Some might have some odd personal arrangements at home so being away from home might be beneficial. But at the same time, they're ok with the newer, more efficient, more profitable 777 paying the same rate as the more domestic Airbus.

You are discussing another issue. Movement at the different airlines are happening for different reasons and can often vary.

Yes, at UPS, the movement up would stagnate more because once people are set where they want to be, there would be less moving around and people only moving up when there is a vacancy at the top of the list. However, nobody has to take a pay cut to get to where they want to be SO THAT a junior pilot can hold something above which their seniority probably couldn't hold.

As I said, we have neither the ALPA model of pay or UPS's. Why do our 777s pay the same as much smaller aircraft? Why do we find that acceptable?

I also might add, being offered your first 757CA upgrade when junior is not always smart. Your QOL goes down. You make about the same if not less money than you would if you held your seniority on a WB FO position. So those arguing our system allows someone junior to move up while someone senior can choose to move down for a pay cut doesn't make sense.

FDXLAG

I have said something similar many times, I think even I this thread.

Even Delta and United blend some aircraft into others, one I think blends some 76 pay rates with some 75s. A single pay rate is a great idea. Multiple pay rates are a great idea. Now come up with a proposal that doesn't screw enough people to get a majority vote and we will talk. I'll help you out; Any pilot on the FDX Master Seniority List with a DOH after 1 Jan 2017 will be put on the revised FDX single rate pay scale with blended WB and NB maximum hourly rate of $282 and $201, to be increased by the same percentage each years as the traditional FDX pay rates.

Any other method will not work because WB pilots will be cheated to give NB pilots a pay raise. And WB pilots are the majority.

PurpleToolBox

I do not believe that. The beauty of going to a single rate system is reduced training costs, reduced moving between bases. That's how you sell it to the company so a single pay rate for all.

And I also laugh at the "if the NB pilots get a raise, why don't we?" Well, you are or will. And you won't have to take a pay decrease to be at home every night.

kronan

We didn't wind 777 pay acceptable,
we grieved it and lost

Sluggo_63

We get that, but are you advocating that we move to one or the other, or just the UPS system? The pure ALPA method doesn't solve your problem at all. If we had 5 different payrates for each aircraft and the 757 flew to the most senior pilot's hometown, then he would have to decide to either fly to his hometown or be on a higher paying aircraft. Only the UPS system allows the senior guy to fly a narrowbody at a widebody rate. No other airline (with multiple fleet types) has this type of arrangent. UPS is the aberration in this regard.

Well, if that is the single greatest factor in QOL, then the decision is easy, right? If being home is a greater QOL factor than maximizing dollars, then there is no choice to be made.
Actually, we weren't. We took it to arbitration, but we lost.

Sluggo_63

You don't think the company has thought of this? Do you think they haven't run the numbers on it? Do you think if it was going to save them money they would have pushed it during negotiations?

Adlerdriver

PTB,
I'm not trying to dispute what you're saying. I'm trying to understand your point. Most airlines have more defined pay bands that differentiate between aircraft types rather than just NB & WB - but the dynamic remains.. All pilots at those airlines except for the most senior and most junior have to make the same decisions - take a higher paying aircraft with less relative seniority or opt for better QOL and lower pay. Why is that so different from us? Do those airlines not have the same "problems" generated as well?

There's nothing wrong with your desire to have your cake and eat it too. Fly the a/c you want with the schedules that suit you and get max pay (or the same pay everyone else is making). Aside from UPS, from what I can see, that's not that common across the industry unless the airline has one a/c type.

Does this mean you would do away with BKO/over-10 pay on the long-haul flights? What about international override? I mean if you really don't want to sacrifice anything in order to get max QOL, then don't those have to go? Even with a single pay rate, under our current trip pay system, someone who wants to be home every night on the 757 would have to opt out of that additional pay available to the long-haul guys in favor of QOL.