Why I'm Voting No
09-13-2015, 04:09 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,199
Why I'm voting no - in a nutshell.
I am forced to read every single line of every single section and know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that it will be misinterpreted, abused, misrepresented, and go undefended by my union.
Look at any contract through that lens and it's ugly.
The real problem is the environment of mistrust that has been created by flight management the past few years.
Maybe it will cost them some money to repair that relationship.
Pipe
I am forced to read every single line of every single section and know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that it will be misinterpreted, abused, misrepresented, and go undefended by my union.
Look at any contract through that lens and it's ugly.
The real problem is the environment of mistrust that has been created by flight management the past few years.
Maybe it will cost them some money to repair that relationship.
Pipe
09-13-2015, 04:16 PM
#32
Avoiding Memphis
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Intl Feeder Jet
Posts: 504
The company said there was no more money. I don't buy that. They have tons of money and are only offering enough to get 50%+1 to approve this crappy TA.
Send the guys back with a 65% NO vote and then see what the company says about the A-plan cap. The "pie" of money is determined by the company but it is NOT fixed. They have plenty of cash - we just have to show that we want it.
09-13-2015, 06:25 PM
#35
Part Time Employee
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Dispersing Green House Gasses on a Global Basis
Posts: 1,918
09-13-2015, 07:43 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,199
What about part 1 of that question? How many years will it take to cleanse the relationship between management and the pilot group, (and now for a lot of guys on this website, our ALPA group) so that you will trust any TA? If you don't trust management and you don't trust ALPA, it doesn't matter if they offer a TA with a 100% pay raise and a million dollar A fund cap. If you really think they are liars, nothing they offer is worth reading.
In the meantime (and I offer this generically, not directed at you), we are left with our 2011 CBA. And guess who is most happy with the status quo? The same group that has been stalling for 4 years to keep it. And now they have the added bonus of pointing the finger at us when the NMB demands progress. That doesn't exactly put us in the driver's seat for demanding more than what has already been approved by our own MEC. Especially not when the reality is, the contract we are being offered does, in fact, exceed in most ways the contracts other pilot groups work under. We can argue that our company is more profitable, or we "deserve" more, but do you think those arguments are going to carry much weight with our federal government? We can vote to approve a strike, but did you notice what kind of impact that had with UPS? The huge media headlines? The massive dip in stock price? Their stock is actually higher now than the day before they announced the strike vote. Their investors know what an idle threat that is. We can picket our shareholders meeting all we want. They invest in FDX. They don't want their dividends impacted by significant increases in employee wages. Does anyone really think the largest investors in FDX care whether your A Plan is going to provide you with healthy retirement in 10 or 15 years? Get real. And they know our little temper tantrums will ultimately be shut down by the feds before any lasting damage to their investment takes root.
Ultimately, we pay good money for an association to negotiate a contract with our employer. Our association has told us the TA we are reviewing is the best they can do. Our choice is now to accept their word, or fire them. I don't fault anyone for making either choice. I do question the expectation that starting over, given where we already are, will do anything other than delay the signing date of a contract that looks very similar to what we have already been offered. If someone has a dream team of new negotiators lined up and ready to take on our cause, I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, we're asking our current team to go work their butts off to prove they lied to us the first time around.
In the meantime (and I offer this generically, not directed at you), we are left with our 2011 CBA. And guess who is most happy with the status quo? The same group that has been stalling for 4 years to keep it. And now they have the added bonus of pointing the finger at us when the NMB demands progress. That doesn't exactly put us in the driver's seat for demanding more than what has already been approved by our own MEC. Especially not when the reality is, the contract we are being offered does, in fact, exceed in most ways the contracts other pilot groups work under. We can argue that our company is more profitable, or we "deserve" more, but do you think those arguments are going to carry much weight with our federal government? We can vote to approve a strike, but did you notice what kind of impact that had with UPS? The huge media headlines? The massive dip in stock price? Their stock is actually higher now than the day before they announced the strike vote. Their investors know what an idle threat that is. We can picket our shareholders meeting all we want. They invest in FDX. They don't want their dividends impacted by significant increases in employee wages. Does anyone really think the largest investors in FDX care whether your A Plan is going to provide you with healthy retirement in 10 or 15 years? Get real. And they know our little temper tantrums will ultimately be shut down by the feds before any lasting damage to their investment takes root.
Ultimately, we pay good money for an association to negotiate a contract with our employer. Our association has told us the TA we are reviewing is the best they can do. Our choice is now to accept their word, or fire them. I don't fault anyone for making either choice. I do question the expectation that starting over, given where we already are, will do anything other than delay the signing date of a contract that looks very similar to what we have already been offered. If someone has a dream team of new negotiators lined up and ready to take on our cause, I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, we're asking our current team to go work their butts off to prove they lied to us the first time around.
09-13-2015, 09:23 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 494
What about part 1 of that question? How many years will it take to cleanse the relationship between management and the pilot group, (and now for a lot of guys on this website, our ALPA group) so that you will trust any TA? If you don't trust management and you don't trust ALPA, it doesn't matter if they offer a TA with a 100% pay raise and a million dollar A fund cap. If you really think they are liars, nothing they offer is worth reading.
In the meantime (and I offer this generically, not directed at you), we are left with our 2011 CBA. And guess who is most happy with the status quo? The same group that has been stalling for 4 years to keep it. And now they have the added bonus of pointing the finger at us when the NMB demands progress. That doesn't exactly put us in the driver's seat for demanding more than what has already been approved by our own MEC. Especially not when the reality is, the contract we are being offered does, in fact, exceed in most ways the contracts other pilot groups work under. We can argue that our company is more profitable, or we "deserve" more, but do you think those arguments are going to carry much weight with our federal government? We can vote to approve a strike, but did you notice what kind of impact that had with UPS? The huge media headlines? The massive dip in stock price? Their stock is actually higher now than the day before they announced the strike vote. Their investors know what an idle threat that is. We can picket our shareholders meeting all we want. They invest in FDX. They don't want their dividends impacted by significant increases in employee wages. Does anyone really think the largest investors in FDX care whether your A Plan is going to provide you with healthy retirement in 10 or 15 years? Get real. And they know our little temper tantrums will ultimately be shut down by the feds before any lasting damage to their investment takes root.
Ultimately, we pay good money for an association to negotiate a contract with our employer. Our association has told us the TA we are reviewing is the best they can do. Our choice is now to accept their word, or fire them. I don't fault anyone for making either choice. I do question the expectation that starting over, given where we already are, will do anything other than delay the signing date of a contract that looks very similar to what we have already been offered. If someone has a dream team of new negotiators lined up and ready to take on our cause, I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, we're asking our current team to go work their butts off to prove they lied to us the first time around.
In the meantime (and I offer this generically, not directed at you), we are left with our 2011 CBA. And guess who is most happy with the status quo? The same group that has been stalling for 4 years to keep it. And now they have the added bonus of pointing the finger at us when the NMB demands progress. That doesn't exactly put us in the driver's seat for demanding more than what has already been approved by our own MEC. Especially not when the reality is, the contract we are being offered does, in fact, exceed in most ways the contracts other pilot groups work under. We can argue that our company is more profitable, or we "deserve" more, but do you think those arguments are going to carry much weight with our federal government? We can vote to approve a strike, but did you notice what kind of impact that had with UPS? The huge media headlines? The massive dip in stock price? Their stock is actually higher now than the day before they announced the strike vote. Their investors know what an idle threat that is. We can picket our shareholders meeting all we want. They invest in FDX. They don't want their dividends impacted by significant increases in employee wages. Does anyone really think the largest investors in FDX care whether your A Plan is going to provide you with healthy retirement in 10 or 15 years? Get real. And they know our little temper tantrums will ultimately be shut down by the feds before any lasting damage to their investment takes root.
Ultimately, we pay good money for an association to negotiate a contract with our employer. Our association has told us the TA we are reviewing is the best they can do. Our choice is now to accept their word, or fire them. I don't fault anyone for making either choice. I do question the expectation that starting over, given where we already are, will do anything other than delay the signing date of a contract that looks very similar to what we have already been offered. If someone has a dream team of new negotiators lined up and ready to take on our cause, I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, we're asking our current team to go work their butts off to prove they lied to us the first time around.
09-13-2015, 10:17 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 107
Just like the Iran Deal--No deal is better than a bad deal.
I'm voting NO so we can get this fixed now. After all the pilot group has contributed to the company's success it is very disappointing that both FedEx and our NC would not only offer us this dismal TA, but would try and sell it to us as a great deal.
FedEx and the Union want to keep comparing us to companies coming off decades of losses, who are just now emerging from bankruptcy. Remember we didn't so much pull ahead of these airlines as much as they moved backwards. Meanwhile during the worst recession since the great depression, we helped FedEx not only remain profitable, but nearly quadruple profits. FedEx can afford a reasonable contract. Now FedEx wants to lock us into this decade long concessionary deal just as the future looks the brightest it has in a long time. They know it won't be long before other airlines catch up with or surpass our compensation and benefits. Looking forward we see: Pilot shortage, cheap fuel, growing economy, competitors wiped out in the recession, growing revenue and earnings--are we really going to accept this decade long concessionary deal.
Now the company and our union expect us to accept another mere cost of living raise that also includes numerous work rule concessions. We will also be forced to watch the value of our A plan being eaten away by inflation for another decade. If we vote this TA in by the time we have the opportunity to address fixing our A plan, it will only provide one third to one half of the buying power it had when the 260K limit was established (depending on inflation). If we keep pushing protecting the value of our retirement down the road we will be complicit in helping the company eventually take it away from us.
Remember with age 65 the company is getting years of extra work from us with no additional creditable years beyond 25. Plus for every year beyond age 60 a pilot works the company saves another year of pension money they don't have to pay out. We are working an extra 5 years how about another 5 years of creditable service and another week of vacation? Now that would be a QOL improvement!!!
Remember just because FedEx says it costs money, and it causes accounting problems doesn't make me anymore willing to give up our A plan. I'm not even willing to let the value of our A Plan be stolen from us at a rate of 3% a year. Do they seriously think we failed math. Do they think that a puny 1% B fund increase now and then 1% more 4 years later actually even comes close to being fair???!!!!
Losing hotel in lieu of for Intracontinental DH's--Hmmm do you suppose the company will expand on this as time passes or do you trust them to keep this QOL benefit in place for the rest of us. I guess as long as I get mine I don't care about screwing over the guys in the FDA's it's cool (I hope I never need them to support me on any issues). I'm sure they would never take away Hotel in Lieu of from the rest of us.
Putting pilots on company jumpseats rather than DH's--Hmmm do you think they will exploit this concession or do you trust them to keep all our deadheads. I'm sure the company doesn't look at UPS and want to stick us on company jumpseats instead of DHs. I'm sure they would never put us on augmented 767 trips or DH us to Europe on 767's like UPS does since it has no crew rest facilities--oh I forgot isn't that part of this TA too.
Loss of first class (which we gave concessions for to get on a previous contract), and Dash-8 intra Europe deadheads (loss of class of service and reduction in DH bank), moving from 12 to 18 hour required intercontinental deadheads, plus we pay $25 each time we change tickets with global travel (seriously?). Hmmm I'm sure we won't see the company expand on these concessions and that this time our NC got the language tight and right. I thought we were going to fix and improve QOL and loose language instead we are making it worse.
The company asked for 6 week bid months and I'm sure they have no plans to exploit that around the holidays. They call our back pay a bonus, they are trying to buy votes and cover how badly they have allowed staffing to get with DSA and vacation buy backs. We are getting ready for the biggest pilot hiring in nearly a decade and that looks to continue for many decades into the future and now we give up much of our passover pay protection.
We have earned a real pay raise not another cost living increase, we have earned QOL improvements not concessions, and we need to protect the value of our retirement and benefits as a minimum.
We are flying more legs with shorter layovers, no weekend layovers, week on and week off flying is disappearing, dead head schedules and banks have gotten ridiculous, adversarial management and a general degradation of our QOL. This is a great job and I like it, but we need to protect our compensation, benefits and QOL so it remains a great job moving forward.
Defeating this TA will take a grass roots movement. We individually have to work hard to get the word out in order to defeat this. We might also have to do the hard work to possibly replace some key union officials who have let us down.
Unfortunately we are now paying 2% to have people work against us. Our dues is now funding fancy videos with professional talking points, to host TA sales meetings where they can deliver these talking points again, cover up concessions and shutdown the dissenting opinions. Remember they have already told us they believe this is a good deal so they have a vested interest in trying to sell us this sugar coated sh*tball. I know I have said it before but no matter how much you sugar coat a sh*tball it is still as sh*tball. Please do your part and use your brain and think this through. Even a decade long mediocre deal in today's environment is unacceptable, much less this turd of a TA.
I'm voting NO so we can get this fixed now. After all the pilot group has contributed to the company's success it is very disappointing that both FedEx and our NC would not only offer us this dismal TA, but would try and sell it to us as a great deal.
FedEx and the Union want to keep comparing us to companies coming off decades of losses, who are just now emerging from bankruptcy. Remember we didn't so much pull ahead of these airlines as much as they moved backwards. Meanwhile during the worst recession since the great depression, we helped FedEx not only remain profitable, but nearly quadruple profits. FedEx can afford a reasonable contract. Now FedEx wants to lock us into this decade long concessionary deal just as the future looks the brightest it has in a long time. They know it won't be long before other airlines catch up with or surpass our compensation and benefits. Looking forward we see: Pilot shortage, cheap fuel, growing economy, competitors wiped out in the recession, growing revenue and earnings--are we really going to accept this decade long concessionary deal.
Now the company and our union expect us to accept another mere cost of living raise that also includes numerous work rule concessions. We will also be forced to watch the value of our A plan being eaten away by inflation for another decade. If we vote this TA in by the time we have the opportunity to address fixing our A plan, it will only provide one third to one half of the buying power it had when the 260K limit was established (depending on inflation). If we keep pushing protecting the value of our retirement down the road we will be complicit in helping the company eventually take it away from us.
Remember with age 65 the company is getting years of extra work from us with no additional creditable years beyond 25. Plus for every year beyond age 60 a pilot works the company saves another year of pension money they don't have to pay out. We are working an extra 5 years how about another 5 years of creditable service and another week of vacation? Now that would be a QOL improvement!!!
Remember just because FedEx says it costs money, and it causes accounting problems doesn't make me anymore willing to give up our A plan. I'm not even willing to let the value of our A Plan be stolen from us at a rate of 3% a year. Do they seriously think we failed math. Do they think that a puny 1% B fund increase now and then 1% more 4 years later actually even comes close to being fair???!!!!
Losing hotel in lieu of for Intracontinental DH's--Hmmm do you suppose the company will expand on this as time passes or do you trust them to keep this QOL benefit in place for the rest of us. I guess as long as I get mine I don't care about screwing over the guys in the FDA's it's cool (I hope I never need them to support me on any issues). I'm sure they would never take away Hotel in Lieu of from the rest of us.
Putting pilots on company jumpseats rather than DH's--Hmmm do you think they will exploit this concession or do you trust them to keep all our deadheads. I'm sure the company doesn't look at UPS and want to stick us on company jumpseats instead of DHs. I'm sure they would never put us on augmented 767 trips or DH us to Europe on 767's like UPS does since it has no crew rest facilities--oh I forgot isn't that part of this TA too.
Loss of first class (which we gave concessions for to get on a previous contract), and Dash-8 intra Europe deadheads (loss of class of service and reduction in DH bank), moving from 12 to 18 hour required intercontinental deadheads, plus we pay $25 each time we change tickets with global travel (seriously?). Hmmm I'm sure we won't see the company expand on these concessions and that this time our NC got the language tight and right. I thought we were going to fix and improve QOL and loose language instead we are making it worse.
The company asked for 6 week bid months and I'm sure they have no plans to exploit that around the holidays. They call our back pay a bonus, they are trying to buy votes and cover how badly they have allowed staffing to get with DSA and vacation buy backs. We are getting ready for the biggest pilot hiring in nearly a decade and that looks to continue for many decades into the future and now we give up much of our passover pay protection.
We have earned a real pay raise not another cost living increase, we have earned QOL improvements not concessions, and we need to protect the value of our retirement and benefits as a minimum.
We are flying more legs with shorter layovers, no weekend layovers, week on and week off flying is disappearing, dead head schedules and banks have gotten ridiculous, adversarial management and a general degradation of our QOL. This is a great job and I like it, but we need to protect our compensation, benefits and QOL so it remains a great job moving forward.
Defeating this TA will take a grass roots movement. We individually have to work hard to get the word out in order to defeat this. We might also have to do the hard work to possibly replace some key union officials who have let us down.
Unfortunately we are now paying 2% to have people work against us. Our dues is now funding fancy videos with professional talking points, to host TA sales meetings where they can deliver these talking points again, cover up concessions and shutdown the dissenting opinions. Remember they have already told us they believe this is a good deal so they have a vested interest in trying to sell us this sugar coated sh*tball. I know I have said it before but no matter how much you sugar coat a sh*tball it is still as sh*tball. Please do your part and use your brain and think this through. Even a decade long mediocre deal in today's environment is unacceptable, much less this turd of a TA.
09-13-2015, 10:28 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,199
I want all Q&A sessions following the roadshows taped and included. I want to see how the tough questions are answered. I also want to see equal podium time offer for the block reps who voted against the TA. Who is the last person you ask if it's a nice car? The salesman. I also believe we can have open mike sessions for those who care to speak from the membership.
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