Why I'm Voting No
09-17-2015, 10:29 AM
#91
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 798
Sometimes people have to be dragged along to do the right thing if its tough - but afterward they're glad they did it.
Pipe
09-17-2015, 10:35 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
I think that many of the yes voters will behave like non-members. Quietly relieved that someone else was willing to make the tough call and happy to reap the rewards.
Sometimes people have to be dragged along to do the right thing if its tough - but afterward they're glad they did it.
Pipe
Sometimes people have to be dragged along to do the right thing if its tough - but afterward they're glad they did it.
Pipe
09-17-2015, 10:55 AM
#93
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 798
Once again, it is a business decision. You have your ego and self worth wrapped up in something that means something completely different to different people. Vote no, vote yes and get on with life. It is something you can not control. I can live with either decision, I hope you can too.
That experience is also the reason I'm more of a management/company skeptic than most. I realize that we are a cost center.
Think of yourself as any other piece of equipment at the company. Management is not going to spend money on any item of plant and equipment if that plant or equipment doesn't demand or require it. I'm ready to be the squeaky wheel.
It really is that simple.
Pipe
09-17-2015, 12:10 PM
#94
"blue collar thug"!
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: A proponent of...
Posts: 1,614
I'm simply filling in a few details to your misty eyed post about the impact of pilots and their families holding hands in a rainstorm under the Delta CEOs window (though I'd still like to see where that quote appeared). There was a whole lot more going on that was influencing decision making at the time. Including shareholders frustrated with increasing loses, due in part, to very significant numbers of flights being cancelled. None of that applies to our current situation. We could all go serenade Fred Smith, singing kumbaya and wearing nothing but hats and lanyards, but he probably wouldn't budge much on what has already been offered.
As far as making a stand for myself, I am one of the few people on this site who is actually comfortable with the TA and isn't afraid to say so. I also recognize the difference between simply *****ing about something, and actually coming up with a strategy to fix what I'm *****ing about. Time and time again I have asked people in this forum how they propose to convince the company to improve what they've already offered. I guess your solution is to gather at Hacks Cross in the rain. I'll give you credit, that's better then the usual answer which is "We tell them we want and deserve more". I've made my decision. I'm comfortable with it. Just waiting to vote.
As far as making a stand for myself, I am one of the few people on this site who is actually comfortable with the TA and isn't afraid to say so. I also recognize the difference between simply *****ing about something, and actually coming up with a strategy to fix what I'm *****ing about. Time and time again I have asked people in this forum how they propose to convince the company to improve what they've already offered. I guess your solution is to gather at Hacks Cross in the rain. I'll give you credit, that's better then the usual answer which is "We tell them we want and deserve more". I've made my decision. I'm comfortable with it. Just waiting to vote.
I would like to make a couple of points about some of what you said.
I dont know how significant our cancellations have been. But there have been many. And during the Xmas season that is bad, bad PR for the #1 express shipper.
I have my own personal strategy and others may have one also. My choice is to stay out of debt, enjoy my time off, and fly the way I am paid and required to do. I dont fly extra, so I am not changing any of my habits or trying to incite an illegal job action. It is just my choice. Everyone has their own choices that they make, independent of everyone else.
By what I personally do, I feel that I have shown the Company where I stand. But, this is a collective process. If the TA is voted down, I do think that just by that action, we add a little more leverage. Some would disagree. It all comes down to what we do as a group. And how much dysfunction we exhibit when we do it.
Cant predict the future so I will sit back and watch the show.
09-26-2015, 08:42 AM
#95
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD-11 Captain
Posts: 53
For the last month I’ve been reading everything I could find on the new TA. I’ve watched the videos, read the Q&A’s and studied my fellow crewmembers comments here on Jetflyer as well as other places. I’ve spoken to my friends, my Reps, and some of the MEC Officers. I believe at this point I am well informed thanks to all the above-mentioned people and resources.
What I concluded is the crew force is divided about 50/50 as to whether this TA is acceptable or must be rejected. What surprises me is I have not seen one comment from anyone who likes the TA, or is excited about the changes and can’t wait for it to be ratified. I have to wonder why we would vote for a TA that no one really likes.
I have read the opinions that this is the best we can get, lines in the sand, accounting expenses that can’t be met in a time or record profits. The fear that if rejected it will take years to renegotiate a new agreement. Concern the NNB will never release us ( they never will). But I haven’t seen one I love it because……..
It seems to me people are accepting this with the thought any agreement is better than no agreement (Much like the Iranian Nuclear deal). I don’t think so, really what happens if we reject the TA. The answer is NOTHING, the day after it is rejected will be the same as the day before. Same work rules, same pay, same leverage, same pilot shortage, same level of pilots showing their frustration.
There will probably be a year or perhaps years we go without a raise but that is what retro is for. I’d rather wait than live 6 to 10 years under an agreement I don’t think any of us like. So I guess that makes me a No vote.
What I concluded is the crew force is divided about 50/50 as to whether this TA is acceptable or must be rejected. What surprises me is I have not seen one comment from anyone who likes the TA, or is excited about the changes and can’t wait for it to be ratified. I have to wonder why we would vote for a TA that no one really likes.
I have read the opinions that this is the best we can get, lines in the sand, accounting expenses that can’t be met in a time or record profits. The fear that if rejected it will take years to renegotiate a new agreement. Concern the NNB will never release us ( they never will). But I haven’t seen one I love it because……..
It seems to me people are accepting this with the thought any agreement is better than no agreement (Much like the Iranian Nuclear deal). I don’t think so, really what happens if we reject the TA. The answer is NOTHING, the day after it is rejected will be the same as the day before. Same work rules, same pay, same leverage, same pilot shortage, same level of pilots showing their frustration.
There will probably be a year or perhaps years we go without a raise but that is what retro is for. I’d rather wait than live 6 to 10 years under an agreement I don’t think any of us like. So I guess that makes me a No vote.
09-26-2015, 02:22 PM
#96
"blue collar thug"!
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: A proponent of...
Posts: 1,614
For the last month I’ve been reading everything I could find on the new TA. I’ve watched the videos, read the Q&A’s and studied my fellow crewmembers comments here on Jetflyer as well as other places. I’ve spoken to my friends, my Reps, and some of the MEC Officers. I believe at this point I am well informed thanks to all the above-mentioned people and resources.
What I concluded is the crew force is divided about 50/50 as to whether this TA is acceptable or must be rejected. What surprises me is I have not seen one comment from anyone who likes the TA, or is excited about the changes and can’t wait for it to be ratified. I have to wonder why we would vote for a TA that no one really likes.
I have read the opinions that this is the best we can get, lines in the sand, accounting expenses that can’t be met in a time or record profits. The fear that if rejected it will take years to renegotiate a new agreement. Concern the NNB will never release us ( they never will). But I haven’t seen one I love it because……..
It seems to me people are accepting this with the thought any agreement is better than no agreement (Much like the Iranian Nuclear deal). I don’t think so, really what happens if we reject the TA. The answer is NOTHING, the day after it is rejected will be the same as the day before. Same work rules, same pay, same leverage, same pilot shortage, same level of pilots showing their frustration.
There will probably be a year or perhaps years we go without a raise but that is what retro is for. I’d rather wait than live 6 to 10 years under an agreement I don’t think any of us like. So I guess that makes me a No vote.
What I concluded is the crew force is divided about 50/50 as to whether this TA is acceptable or must be rejected. What surprises me is I have not seen one comment from anyone who likes the TA, or is excited about the changes and can’t wait for it to be ratified. I have to wonder why we would vote for a TA that no one really likes.
I have read the opinions that this is the best we can get, lines in the sand, accounting expenses that can’t be met in a time or record profits. The fear that if rejected it will take years to renegotiate a new agreement. Concern the NNB will never release us ( they never will). But I haven’t seen one I love it because……..
It seems to me people are accepting this with the thought any agreement is better than no agreement (Much like the Iranian Nuclear deal). I don’t think so, really what happens if we reject the TA. The answer is NOTHING, the day after it is rejected will be the same as the day before. Same work rules, same pay, same leverage, same pilot shortage, same level of pilots showing their frustration.
There will probably be a year or perhaps years we go without a raise but that is what retro is for. I’d rather wait than live 6 to 10 years under an agreement I don’t think any of us like. So I guess that makes me a No vote.
Seems people are happy with mediocrity. We sure have been beat down over the years. IMO of course.
09-26-2015, 02:57 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,095
For the last month I’ve been reading everything I could find on the new TA. I’ve watched the videos, read the Q&A’s and studied my fellow crewmembers comments here on Jetflyer as well as other places. I’ve spoken to my friends, my Reps, and some of the MEC Officers. I believe at this point I am well informed thanks to all the above-mentioned people and resources.
What I concluded is the crew force is divided about 50/50 as to whether this TA is acceptable or must be rejected. What surprises me is I have not seen one comment from anyone who likes the TA, or is excited about the changes and can’t wait for it to be ratified. I have to wonder why we would vote for a TA that no one really likes.
I have read the opinions that this is the best we can get, lines in the sand, accounting expenses that can’t be met in a time or record profits. The fear that if rejected it will take years to renegotiate a new agreement. Concern the NNB will never release us ( they never will). But I haven’t seen one I love it because……..
It seems to me people are accepting this with the thought any agreement is better than no agreement (Much like the Iranian Nuclear deal). I don’t think so, really what happens if we reject the TA. The answer is NOTHING, the day after it is rejected will be the same as the day before. Same work rules, same pay, same leverage, same pilot shortage, same level of pilots showing their frustration.
There will probably be a year or perhaps years we go without a raise but that is what retro is for. I’d rather wait than live 6 to 10 years under an agreement I don’t think any of us like. So I guess that makes me a No vote.
What I concluded is the crew force is divided about 50/50 as to whether this TA is acceptable or must be rejected. What surprises me is I have not seen one comment from anyone who likes the TA, or is excited about the changes and can’t wait for it to be ratified. I have to wonder why we would vote for a TA that no one really likes.
I have read the opinions that this is the best we can get, lines in the sand, accounting expenses that can’t be met in a time or record profits. The fear that if rejected it will take years to renegotiate a new agreement. Concern the NNB will never release us ( they never will). But I haven’t seen one I love it because……..
It seems to me people are accepting this with the thought any agreement is better than no agreement (Much like the Iranian Nuclear deal). I don’t think so, really what happens if we reject the TA. The answer is NOTHING, the day after it is rejected will be the same as the day before. Same work rules, same pay, same leverage, same pilot shortage, same level of pilots showing their frustration.
There will probably be a year or perhaps years we go without a raise but that is what retro is for. I’d rather wait than live 6 to 10 years under an agreement I don’t think any of us like. So I guess that makes me a No vote.
09-26-2015, 06:14 PM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: MD
Posts: 194
These comments are heartfelt after many years on property and weighing the comments pro/con on the TA.
I will not attack or denigrate any single poster nor will I push anyone up on a pedestal like many others.
The most basic observation for me is one of genuine disappointment ... on many levels.
Disappointment that my employer does not genuinely appreciate our collective efforts and contributions to insane profitability. It's undeniable. I'm not limiting it to the pilots. I'm honestly ASHAMED of FDX corporation. Long haul truckers, maintenance personnel, loaders, ramp agents, local delivery employees, support employees (part time and full time) -- (or are they really just independent contractors?) ... all of them are underpaid and under appreciated. Keep the BZs. They mean nothing.
Disappointed that my hard earned dues money supports an MEC (past and present) and NC that lost focus on the pillars of our opening objectives. Apparently it's easier to settle based on company data and ALPA national "advice" than play in the tall grass with the big boys. I guess our leaders believe everything they read. Hell, we would have lost every war this country has ever fought with the same lame viewpoint and naive people.
FDX has lost its corporate identity over the last 2 decades. It's shameful. We built this company!!! Wake up!!! I know, the pacifists and spineless among us say ... Relax, it's just business, it's not emotional. This is our career. This is about our families, our current work rules, our retirements, and our futures. You're damn right it's emotional and it should be. Once you educate yourself on the TA (in a non-emotional, academic analysis), I think it's perfectly normal and acceptable to get ****ed off! For those that push the argument, it's the best we can do and there's no guarantee it will get any better ...
How about this ... S . T . F . U. There's no guarantee your dumba-- won't step in front of a bus tomorrow walking to Starbucks. This is about our careers: past, present, and future! If you're a parent, you want better for your kids than yourself right? Oh but wait a minute. This is the FDX pilot group. We always take the first offer and it's always based on the short term money. Prove me wrong based on our short, weak history of unionization on the property. You can't! FYIGM is the new slogan for our group. There are basic COLA improvements in the TA. That's all there is folks. The rest is all break even. Is that what you signed on for? Did that exceed your expectations? With this group ... Probably yes.
Sure ... the commercials are funny and the corporate sponsorships in stadiums, NASCAR, NBA arenas, golf, and soccer events are important ... but when the corporation loses its original values of PSP and realigns itself with Profit-Shareholders-Bonuses-Before-Employees (PSBBE), then you have a new dynamic.
Now that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR what this is all about ($$$ for all but those who actually do the front line work), then I feel comfortable in saying that I want mine too.
Let's see what that looks like. Guess what? The TA is not even close. I look to my left and to my right and ask: does this fellow pilot actually understand the level and importance of their contribution to FDX? Well do they or not?
I see plenty of pilots that do. The problem is I see plenty that are willing to settle for well less than should be achieved. These are the same people that bail out and retreat when the real fight begins. This TA would NEVER pass at any airline with a real history of union leaders and people with actual conviction.
I've never been so disappointed in my career.
At this point, I'm not interested in trying to influence the vote. The vote opens on Monday. But, without a doubt, I'm calling it the way I see it. I predict the TA will pass. It will pass because men and women without TRUE conviction will settle for far less than they deserve.
I will not attack or denigrate any single poster nor will I push anyone up on a pedestal like many others.
The most basic observation for me is one of genuine disappointment ... on many levels.
Disappointment that my employer does not genuinely appreciate our collective efforts and contributions to insane profitability. It's undeniable. I'm not limiting it to the pilots. I'm honestly ASHAMED of FDX corporation. Long haul truckers, maintenance personnel, loaders, ramp agents, local delivery employees, support employees (part time and full time) -- (or are they really just independent contractors?) ... all of them are underpaid and under appreciated. Keep the BZs. They mean nothing.
Disappointed that my hard earned dues money supports an MEC (past and present) and NC that lost focus on the pillars of our opening objectives. Apparently it's easier to settle based on company data and ALPA national "advice" than play in the tall grass with the big boys. I guess our leaders believe everything they read. Hell, we would have lost every war this country has ever fought with the same lame viewpoint and naive people.
FDX has lost its corporate identity over the last 2 decades. It's shameful. We built this company!!! Wake up!!! I know, the pacifists and spineless among us say ... Relax, it's just business, it's not emotional. This is our career. This is about our families, our current work rules, our retirements, and our futures. You're damn right it's emotional and it should be. Once you educate yourself on the TA (in a non-emotional, academic analysis), I think it's perfectly normal and acceptable to get ****ed off! For those that push the argument, it's the best we can do and there's no guarantee it will get any better ...
How about this ... S . T . F . U. There's no guarantee your dumba-- won't step in front of a bus tomorrow walking to Starbucks. This is about our careers: past, present, and future! If you're a parent, you want better for your kids than yourself right? Oh but wait a minute. This is the FDX pilot group. We always take the first offer and it's always based on the short term money. Prove me wrong based on our short, weak history of unionization on the property. You can't! FYIGM is the new slogan for our group. There are basic COLA improvements in the TA. That's all there is folks. The rest is all break even. Is that what you signed on for? Did that exceed your expectations? With this group ... Probably yes.
Sure ... the commercials are funny and the corporate sponsorships in stadiums, NASCAR, NBA arenas, golf, and soccer events are important ... but when the corporation loses its original values of PSP and realigns itself with Profit-Shareholders-Bonuses-Before-Employees (PSBBE), then you have a new dynamic.
Now that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR what this is all about ($$$ for all but those who actually do the front line work), then I feel comfortable in saying that I want mine too.
Let's see what that looks like. Guess what? The TA is not even close. I look to my left and to my right and ask: does this fellow pilot actually understand the level and importance of their contribution to FDX? Well do they or not?
I see plenty of pilots that do. The problem is I see plenty that are willing to settle for well less than should be achieved. These are the same people that bail out and retreat when the real fight begins. This TA would NEVER pass at any airline with a real history of union leaders and people with actual conviction.
I've never been so disappointed in my career.
At this point, I'm not interested in trying to influence the vote. The vote opens on Monday. But, without a doubt, I'm calling it the way I see it. I predict the TA will pass. It will pass because men and women without TRUE conviction will settle for far less than they deserve.
Last edited by GetRealDude; 09-26-2015 at 06:39 PM.
09-26-2015, 07:22 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,095
I have only 5 years on property, and this is only my 3rd full contract negotiation at an airline. I thought I had joined the elite group of pilots who would stand up to the mega profitable corporation in the face of two decades of financial success. After reading from many of our "team leaders" I, as you, have never been as disappointed in my career.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
