FDXLAG

Still ducking the question. You have to live under a contract for the next 4 to 6 years. If you want our old one say so, but it does not include cola. I am sorry we dont fly United's schedules, but that a TA aint gonna fix it. It is my contention (and ALPAs) that this TA is industry leading. Tell me I'm wrong by telling me whose you would rather have. Do I think we should be paid more than Delta, yes, but than they have PBS, if we took PBS I am sure Fred would give us a 15% raise.

CloudSailor

Dude, WHAT are you talking about? That is the whole reason I would vote NO and hope that we are a strong majority, so that we do not live under this concessionary TA, nor the current CBA in need of improvement, for the next 10 years. The improvements we require, have been earned by record-breaking profits. Do you want to settle for this? It seems so. I do not.

Hypothetical questions about other CBAs are like asking "which airline, that has negotiated away their A-plan improvements, during record-breaking profits for 15+ years, would you rather fly for?, which airline has had the profits we have had? which airline has gained more efficiencies in the last 10 years than we have? which airline can afford a better TA than ours?".

Wife is home. Time to enjoy the weekend. 1100+ posts, it makes me sick to see that.

Good luck with the continuous search for your decision LAG. For those who are decided, have read the TA, and understand the concessions we are giving this tremendously profitable company, educate your colleagues.

FDXLAG

Dude the question is simple, who has a better contract? The whole package, work rules, pay, vacation, sick, schedules, anything you want. We do, period. I would trade with no one. I think if you are honest with yourself you would agree. That does not mean I don't think it could be better, I admit that. On average we probably generate more revenue than anyone (excluding UPS NURPS), and we should be rewarded as such. But we have an industry leading contract that anyone else in the industry would envy. Tell the wife you have the best package in the industry.

FDXAV8R

FDXLAG and ROCK not really just responding to just you, but it is a fair question. I've heard many purple bleeding, management type guys ask the same kind of questions. In reality if we accept this TURD we will be the first major airline that signs a contract coming out of the worst recession since the great depression. Everyone else that management, you and the union wants to compare us with has suffered through years of losses and bankruptcies--so to be currently leading the pack is not surprising and really not relevant. Maybe we should be comparing ourselves to other high tech companies who stayed profitable and grew profits almost 400% in the same time.

A better question is with such tremendous growth in revenue and profitability during such dire times why aren't we finally being rewarded for our contribution and why the hell would I give up any work rules and why would I accept any TA that doesn't even protect the value of what I have already earned as a minimum and improve not give away work rules. In addition I am actually unreasonable enough to want more than a cost of living pay raise. I know how hard I work and I'm damn sure I've earned it. Oh yeah I'm not done--I also demand some QOL improvements and won't give ANY concessions.

We might currently be leading other airlines but not because we moved ahead, rather everyone else moved backwards for more than a decade. FedEx is eager for a decade long deal because they know the gap between us and everyone else is closing rapidly and I would expect we won't be industry leading long. When the passenger carriers are out front in pay and benefits our company tells us we aren't in the same business. Then when we are leading we are told we can't ignore that we all share the same job skill set. How about we try and demand what we have earned and our company can afford. Protect the value of what we already have, give me a pay raise and I want some QOL improvements.

If you just look at the money FedEx has made and Everyone else lost for over a decade the fact we are even close is ridiculous. I like my job, but I refuse to keep working more legs with shorter layover, no weekend layovers or leg in and leg out flying, more and more unreasonably scheduled deadheads with unreasonable banks. Plus I'm tired of trip revisions and extensions, operational emergencies for just about anything. I have supported ALPA, our union and the NC until now, time to clean house.

So after paying dues, loyally supporting the union and the NC I am rewarded with a mere contract extension in pay that asks me to accept giving up class of service on deadheads, to start to travel on jumpseats, give up hotel in lieu of, do dash-8 deadheads, pay $25 to change tickets, give hotel rooms on hub turns, jumpseat and fly augmented on the 767 (no crewrest area and a bathroom in the cockpit), watch my retirement lose value to inflation, and increase my medical costs. Plus there is some side deal which is like mini-PBS with a larger percentage of lines than the current awesome secondary system we have but trust us we will sort the details out after we sign--seriously.

I know some of these changes will initially be limited as to who, where and when the company can screw, but do you honestly think the company isn't going to press and expand those concessions you are so willing to give them. Go ahead and trust them I haven't see any pattern of abuse with loose language or changes in the past (I'm smirking).

It is a shame we have paid so much money to have our own union and NC only to have them let us down. It is going to take a grass roots effort to make guys realize how bad a deal this really is. We need a to flush the yes votes back out to the line. I'm OK with ruffling a few feathers and not just eating the crumbs from managements table. You management types keep selling. I think the crew force has had enough. I know I am a definite NO Vote. Union Yes voters do the right thing and step down--good god aren't you suppose to be pilots first--some of you guys have been over there for decades.

FDXLAG

So when the NC says we have an industry leading TA you don't dispute it, you just think it should be more. It is not a trick question. You can thick this TA is a turd and industry leading. I think we could have done better, given the block 2 letter today, it would take a long time. You think it is worth it I don't. I will be fine if no carries the day. I've got six years left, the last four will be well paid and I'll probably have to change seats to get my high 5, but I was planning on it anyways.

Busboy

Wouldn't you also argue that our current contract is still "industry leading"?

FDXAV8R

What industry? You are mangement guys aren't you? You want to compare us to bankrupt companies just coming back. I suppose once they leap frog ahead of us if this TURD passes then you will say Oh passenger carriers deserve to be paid more because they carry precious cargo. Why don't we either stand on our own or look at other companies who have had similar success over the same time period. Go back to your desk jobs.

FDXLAG

It is certainly nea the top of the heap. Do you disagree? The TA makes it better, but I can survive with a no vote. Unlike Delta who actually gave up things for their pay raises we didn't.

Ok you caught me, I am in a cubicle right now. Doesn't explain why you wont answer the question? Who's contract do you want:
UPS
DELTA
UNITED
AMERICAN
SOUTHWEST
RYAN

It is ok to say all of the above because our contract sucks if you want.

Busboy

Take a deep breath there, sport. I hope that wasn't directed at me.

I was simply pointing out, to the enlightened, that our "industry leading" contract is only based on the fact that the bar was lowered, rather than any enormous gains we've made in the past 15 years.

Touting the TA as "industry leading", is pathetically myopic.

Rock

So now we no longer want to use "industry leading" as a measurement tool. Our company is so strong we should be a separate entity. That's a dangerous game to play in my opinion. Not to mention it throws every other ALPA group under the bus. "Hey guys, we got a kickass contract but we're special because our company has never been bankrupt. Don't look at our gains as 'industry standard'. You play with your own deck."