Rouge MEC Block Reps or no negotiation plan?
09-30-2024, 11:16 AM
#41
Contract 2021
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 777 - Both
Posts: 441
But let's see what was explained about Sections 4, 5, 7, 26 and 31 in those comms you referenced. Can you supply a link? Do you need the contractual title to help you out?
09-30-2024, 11:54 AM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 36
With regard to 4 and 25, they're so intertwined that I was surprised that he/she was surprised that we would open both 4 and 25.
Maybe I came off the top rope a bit by saying he/she "lost all credibility." But, that was certainly my initial impression of his/her post.
Edit: Changed you to he/she and your to his/her.
Last edited by zmoney; 09-30-2024 at 12:24 PM.
09-30-2024, 03:33 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,125
Follow-up: My Block Rep said he had "NO IDEA" about the new items announced by the NC in update 24-06!! So rather than what was stated in the above communications from the NC and the LEC's, we are apparently "Cherry Picking" and opening numerous new Sections of the CBA. Now we are opening 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 15, 25, 26, 28 and 31!!!!
To remind everyone this is what ALPA originally opened: 3, 5, 8, 12, 21, 25, 28, 31
Okay, so we are now opening Section 1 (Understood). WTH is with 4, 7, 15, and 26? Those are totally NEW and there are obviously NEW items within the 12 listed by the NC. There is no doubt now. Everything plus a bunch of one-off items are now in play (EX. CPAP machines and no R24 Early Calls) and we have been misled by our MEC. Also, to make matters worse, the NC isn't even certain that their Scope concerns are accurate when they admit "[we] may have it all wrong"? That's really convincing.
As a pilot with FDX for over 8 years and decades to go, this is truly disturbing. We WILL LOSE AN ENTIRE NEGOTIATING CYCLE because we have not been able to focus on the NECESSARY items to conclude a TA successfully. I was a reluctant NO VOTER due to the time frame needed to recoup lost wages and now I am convinced that window just closed with the announcement from the NC.
I DO NOT SUPPORT this entire process of reopening nearly every TA'ed Section plus adding new Sections NEVER OPENED by ALPA. But hey I just got a call from UNH (that seems MOOT) so I can tell them what's important to get a deal done.
Apparently, our BLock 4 Rep (MR 10 YEARS and a TESLA) and Block 5 (MR IT's My DATA so it may be WRONG) Rep are controlling the agenda now for the MEC. I wonder if he will republish his hypothetical graph about how long it will take to recoup lost wages seeing as how his 2 primary inputs are wrong (Pay and time to get a TA). TA 2027 anyone?
Thank GOD they read the "Art Of The Deal"!! Well here's a quote from that book they should take to heart: "Leverage: don't make deals without it. Enhance".
What in the Holy He@#? #worstdecisionever
To remind everyone this is what ALPA originally opened: 3, 5, 8, 12, 21, 25, 28, 31
Okay, so we are now opening Section 1 (Understood). WTH is with 4, 7, 15, and 26? Those are totally NEW and there are obviously NEW items within the 12 listed by the NC. There is no doubt now. Everything plus a bunch of one-off items are now in play (EX. CPAP machines and no R24 Early Calls) and we have been misled by our MEC. Also, to make matters worse, the NC isn't even certain that their Scope concerns are accurate when they admit "[we] may have it all wrong"? That's really convincing.
As a pilot with FDX for over 8 years and decades to go, this is truly disturbing. We WILL LOSE AN ENTIRE NEGOTIATING CYCLE because we have not been able to focus on the NECESSARY items to conclude a TA successfully. I was a reluctant NO VOTER due to the time frame needed to recoup lost wages and now I am convinced that window just closed with the announcement from the NC.
I DO NOT SUPPORT this entire process of reopening nearly every TA'ed Section plus adding new Sections NEVER OPENED by ALPA. But hey I just got a call from UNH (that seems MOOT) so I can tell them what's important to get a deal done.
Apparently, our BLock 4 Rep (MR 10 YEARS and a TESLA) and Block 5 (MR IT's My DATA so it may be WRONG) Rep are controlling the agenda now for the MEC. I wonder if he will republish his hypothetical graph about how long it will take to recoup lost wages seeing as how his 2 primary inputs are wrong (Pay and time to get a TA). TA 2027 anyone?
Thank GOD they read the "Art Of The Deal"!! Well here's a quote from that book they should take to heart: "Leverage: don't make deals without it. Enhance".
What in the Holy He@#? #worstdecisionever
Now that is all said...how's it going so far? 12 Sections were just opened unbeknown to the pilots and the MEC and a BS promise to cover "retired pilots" from today on out. Sure, that and $5.00 will get you a cup of Starbucks coffee.
I don't have to convince you your vote was wrong, your paycheck does that every other week.
I don't have to convince you your vote was wrong, your paycheck does that every other week.
As for the sections "opened"
- 1 Scope - like was said, understood
- 3 Compensation - Establish industry leading hourly rates of pay. Retroactivity of pay rates and benefits from amendable date. Negotitating landscape has drastically shifted since TA1
- 4 Minimum guarantee & other pay provisions - this is where SAM lives so it seems that its tied to section 1
- 5 Travel expenses - objective annual adjustments to perdiem, other expenses (see section 15 below), and greivance settlement on payroll deduction of scheduled hotels.
- 7 Vacation - sell back provisions (this specific item was previously negotaited)
- 8 Deadheading - deviation bank, rental cars, etc, this was part of our openers but in the form of the COVID MOU being made permanent
- 12 Hours of service - two of the original bullet points on our openers under this section remain unattained
- 15 Medical Standards - medical certificate expense and travel CPAP machine reimbursements. In actuallity, this should be moved to section five. But since it currently lives in section 15, it makes it look like a new section being opened.
- 25 Scheduling - two of the original bullet points on our openers under this section remain unattained and greivance settlements for R24 advance assignement, and ASBY in open time.
- 26 General - I didn't see complaints when the previous NC cherry picked Medical freedom
- 28 Retirement - needs improvement
- 31 Duration - this section is the one that wil determine our negotaiting cycle going forward
Read Negotiator's Notepad from 1/9/24. In it they discuss putting in to "play one off items," specifically the CGN MOU and R24 advance assignements (not even a greivance yet, just DARTs being sent). It is normal, expected, that current issues are negoatiaed during section 6. That's the whole point of section six negoatiatons! Its common (I think we are the outlier), that all (or most) outstanding greivances are setteled during section 6 negotiations.
I welcome all the cherrys picked, including trying to get ahead of 4A2 by beggining retirement incentive discussions. In fact, I wish there were more (in no particular order), like fixing our system bidding, simplyfying substitution, our deadhead fare process, and adding more restrictions and larger pay incentives for extensions and revisions.
So in reality, they didnt add any new sections. They added these specific itmes: increased FAA medical expense reimbursement, travel CPAP reimbursement, improved commuter clause (day flying reduced), protections on HIMS/ASAP/NTSB/Flight/Personal data, two greivance settlements, and early retirement incentive discussion as required by 4A2b. A lot of those cherrys are low hanging. But in any case, just like last time, we have to live with what they negotiate until we have something to vote on.
PS. At least they didn't reopen section 21.
Last edited by FXLAX; 09-30-2024 at 03:52 PM. Reason: grammer, clarity, and completeness...hopefully
10-01-2024, 07:09 AM
#44
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
CPAP's for ALL!!
This must be the only pilot group in which you have people complain about the NC/MEC wanting to improve additional items during current negotiatons.
As for the sections "opened"
Read Negotiator's Notepad from 1/9/24. In it they discuss putting in to "play one off items," specifically the CGN MOU and R24 advance assignements (not even a greivance yet, just DARTs being sent). It is normal, expected, that current issues are negoatiaed during section 6. That's the whole point of section six negoatiatons! Its common
I welcome all the cherrys picked
So in reality, they didnt add any new sections.
As for the sections "opened"
- 1 Scope - like was said, understood
- 3 Compensation - Establish industry leading hourly rates of pay. Retroactivity of pay rates and benefits from amendable date. Negotitating landscape has drastically shifted since TA1
- 4 Minimum guarantee & other pay provisions - this is where SAM lives so it seems that its tied to section 1
- 5 Travel expenses - objective annual adjustments to perdiem, other expenses (see section 15 below), and greivance settlement on payroll deduction of scheduled hotels.
- 7 Vacation - sell back provisions (this specific item was previously negotaited)
- 8 Deadheading - deviation bank, rental cars, etc, this was part of our openers but in the form of the COVID MOU being made permanent
- 12 Hours of service - two of the original bullet points on our openers under this section remain unattained
- 15 Medical Standards - medical certificate expense and travel CPAP machine reimbursements. In actuallity, this should be moved to section five. But since it currently lives in section 15, it makes it look like a new section being opened.
- 25 Scheduling - two of the original bullet points on our openers under this section remain unattained and greivance settlements for R24 advance assignement, and ASBY in open time.
- 26 General - I didn't see complaints when the previous NC cherry picked Medical freedom
- 28 Retirement - needs improvement
- 31 Duration - this section is the one that wil determine our negotaiting cycle going forward
Read Negotiator's Notepad from 1/9/24. In it they discuss putting in to "play one off items," specifically the CGN MOU and R24 advance assignements (not even a greivance yet, just DARTs being sent). It is normal, expected, that current issues are negoatiaed during section 6. That's the whole point of section six negoatiatons! Its common
I welcome all the cherrys picked
So in reality, they didnt add any new sections.
I am complaining because it's round two and the clock is ticking on what was lost in the value of the prior deal. Your comments and opinion would make sense to me if this was round one...it isn't. We risked the time value of money by saying "NO" and the clock is ticking. Go look at all the previous rejected TA's in the Airline Industry. All of the prior failed TA's (Delta, United, and AA). They all got back to work on the second TA with a focused approach on the items that needed adjustment, not entire re-writes! Added value to the second deal was in pay rates, and retro. They did not re-open every section TA'ed (We just did)...with no MEC direction.
TA1: $3,800,000,000.00 (Effective August 2023)
+
$20,570.00 (17) CPAP Machines @$1,210 (Effective 202x?)
__________________________________________________ ______________
TA2: $3,800,020,570.00 (#winning, #ArtOfTheDeal)☹
___________________________________________
___________________________________________
+
$20,570.00 (17) CPAP Machines @$1,210 (Effective 202x?)
__________________________________________________ ______________
TA2: $3,800,020,570.00 (#winning, #ArtOfTheDeal)☹
___________________________________________
___________________________________________
10-01-2024, 07:59 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,125
Sure.
I am complaining because it's round two and the clock is ticking on what was lost in the value of the prior deal. Your comments and opinion would make sense to me if this was round one...it isn't. We risked the time value of money by saying "NO" and the clock is ticking. Go look at all the previous rejected TA's in the Airline Industry. All of the prior failed TA's (Delta, United, and AA). They all got back to work on the second TA with a focused approach on the items that needed adjustment, not entire re-writes! Added value to the second deal was in pay rates, and retro. They did not re-open every section TA'ed (We just did)...with no MEC direction.
I am complaining because it's round two and the clock is ticking on what was lost in the value of the prior deal. Your comments and opinion would make sense to me if this was round one...it isn't. We risked the time value of money by saying "NO" and the clock is ticking. Go look at all the previous rejected TA's in the Airline Industry. All of the prior failed TA's (Delta, United, and AA). They all got back to work on the second TA with a focused approach on the items that needed adjustment, not entire re-writes! Added value to the second deal was in pay rates, and retro. They did not re-open every section TA'ed (We just did)...with no MEC direction.
TA1: $3,800,000,000.00 (Effective August 2023)
+
$20,570.00 (17) CPAP Machines @$1,210 (Effective 202x?)
__________________________________________________ ______________
TA2: $3,800,020,570.00 (#winning, #ArtOfTheDeal)☹
___________________________________________
___________________________________________
+
$20,570.00 (17) CPAP Machines @$1,210 (Effective 202x?)
__________________________________________________ ______________
TA2: $3,800,020,570.00 (#winning, #ArtOfTheDeal)☹
___________________________________________
___________________________________________
If you are just interested in placing blame, I suggest you point it at the previous mec for not being in touch with what the pilot group needed to ratify. In any case, I suspect things like Cpap may just be addded items to trade for when the proverbial question is asked, what are you willing to give up?
10-01-2024, 08:27 AM
#46
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2022
Posts: 68
But they didn't open everything. I literally listed the specific items in each section. And listed the handful of extra items. You say that scope is understandable. But what about commuting now that there is significantly less day flying? What about medical reimbursement now that inflation has eaten away at that as well? Like I asked and you ignored, where was your outcry for medical freedom when they decided to add that? Or for the CGN MOU? Or the advance assignments to R24? What about the time value of money lost negotiating those extra things they added? Why no complaints then?
If you are just interested in placing blame, I suggest you point it at the previous mec for not being in touch with what the pilot group needed to ratify. In any case, I suspect things like Cpap may just be addded items to trade for when the proverbial question is asked, what are you willing to give up?
If you are just interested in placing blame, I suggest you point it at the previous mec for not being in touch with what the pilot group needed to ratify. In any case, I suspect things like Cpap may just be addded items to trade for when the proverbial question is asked, what are you willing to give up?
honestly, wasting time arguing with these old geezers is literally the definition of insanity. Let them keep crying, nothings gonna change the fact that a bunch of guy guys held the line for the industry and we all have applauded you for it. Keep fighting the good fight. These dudes will hit 65 and will be soon forgotten.
10-01-2024, 08:42 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 166
Have you not seen the polls that have been going on, the phone surveys, an almost entirely new NC? If you don't think this is the MEC/NC taking direction to ensure they negotiate a better TA, I don't know what to tell you. The new MEC /NC has gathered a lot of information over the last 6 months and is far more in touch with what it will take to give us a ratifiable TA than it was in the past.
10-01-2024, 10:17 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 114
Sure.
I am complaining because it's round two and the clock is ticking on what was lost in the value of the prior deal. Your comments and opinion would make sense to me if this was round one...it isn't. We risked the time value of money by saying "NO" and the clock is ticking. Go look at all the previous rejected TA's in the Airline Industry. All of the prior failed TA's (Delta, United, and AA). They all got back to work on the second TA with a focused approach on the items that needed adjustment, not entire re-writes! Added value to the second deal was in pay rates, and retro. They did not re-open every section TA'ed (We just did)...with no MEC direction.
I am complaining because it's round two and the clock is ticking on what was lost in the value of the prior deal. Your comments and opinion would make sense to me if this was round one...it isn't. We risked the time value of money by saying "NO" and the clock is ticking. Go look at all the previous rejected TA's in the Airline Industry. All of the prior failed TA's (Delta, United, and AA). They all got back to work on the second TA with a focused approach on the items that needed adjustment, not entire re-writes! Added value to the second deal was in pay rates, and retro. They did not re-open every section TA'ed (We just did)...with no MEC direction.
TA1: $3,800,000,000.00 (Effective August 2023)
+
$20,570.00 (17) CPAP Machines @$1,210 (Effective 202x?)
__________________________________________________ ______________
TA2: $3,800,020,570.00 (#winning, #ArtOfTheDeal)☹
___________________________________________
___________________________________________
+
$20,570.00 (17) CPAP Machines @$1,210 (Effective 202x?)
__________________________________________________ ______________
TA2: $3,800,020,570.00 (#winning, #ArtOfTheDeal)☹
___________________________________________
___________________________________________
10-01-2024, 01:19 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 676
Brownas.licker, You do not work at FEDEX and never have. So you do not know **** about the senior pilots here. All you know is what you read from all the dumbasses on here. Go back to the Brown and stay in your lane. Oh forgot, didn't the senior pilots the get a nice buy out or bump in retirement on the backs of the junior?
10-01-2024, 02:27 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 114
Brownas.licker, You do not work at FEDEX and never have. So you do not know **** about the senior pilots here. All you know is what you read from all the dumbasses on here. Go back to the Brown and stay in your lane. Oh forgot, didn't the senior pilots the get a nice buy out or bump in retirement on the backs of the junior?
All the SM and senior geezers care about is their pension.
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