JustInFacts

First, I said $2+ million. That is the lowest number that I see people using to value the A plan. I think it is at least $3 million, but didn't want to stray from the discussion.

18% and 30-35 years? Why are you using those numbers. Our A plan only requires 25 years. We have a 9% DC plan on top of that. So how about trying that calculation using 9% (18 minus our DC plan) and 25 years to see how much you would have to put away each year.

Many of our pilots were furloughed from AA/US Air/UA? So, you shrug off those times, yet fail to mention that we have WB captaind that have been here for less than 6 years. Yeah, times are really tough.

You want to talk about working for 30-35 years, and then talk about QOL. Laughable! Wouldn't the best QOL not be subject to every year and every dollar earned.

It looks like slightly over half our pilots are 53 or older based on the retirment chart. I think some like to throw around majority a lot to make themselves sound important. If you represent the majority, then why aren't the majority of block reps in your demographic? We have pilots younger than 53 in every block, except bock 1. Every block after block 3 has pilots hired since 2015, yet the majority of block reps were hired before that date.

cheers.

Moneybags

For anyone younger than 35, 18% DC with CoC blows away any pension.

The pension ends when you and your wife die. You die before retirement, your wife only gets 50% of what you earned. Your wife dies before you, you can’t switch to a different beneficiary.

In 25 years, a 169k pension is worth ~84k a year. It loses value at the rate of inflation each year.

Oh, and it’s entirely taxable income in retirement. In a big DC plan you can opt to pay taxes now and have your retirement distributions be tax free.

And the pension depends on the long term solvency of the company and its ability to manage the pension fund. A DC plan, the money is yours when it’s deposited.

It’s also a liability and risk to the company, as opposed to just increasing the contribution % of a DC plan or a pay rate. It’s literally the hardest thing to negotiate. Our pension is also currently the best in the industry, so the leverage to improve it further is lacking.

But here we are, letting the obsession with increasing the pension weigh us down and lead to us not having a contract for what will be over 9 years easily, while other airlines have introduced life changing compensation and QOL gains.

This is the cluelessness we’re up against. A 169k pension is not worth anything close to $3+ million. Learn something about financial valuation before throwing out ridiculous numbers.

20 year retirement, it’s worth just over $2 million. Let me know how many people actually have a 20 year retirement.

Oh and you argue QOL, how many guys are hanging around for their pension increase before they can retire? You don’t think this will keep happening every contract cycle? That doesn’t sound like much QOL, sticking around to 65 just to hopefully get pension. Never mind they just lost years of retirement chasing the pension increase.

Trying to increase it is an anchor, dragging us all down. There are other ways to increase retirement for older pilots and junior pilots alike than insisting on more pension.

LuckyNo70

Moneybags, at currrent CD rates, we will just call them 4.5 % for simplicity, for the next couple of years 169 k comes out to about 3.75 M needed to generate that benefit, if we get back to normal 2%, it pushes that 169 to 8.45 M needed to create 169 in benefits yearly. But dont let math get in the way of your biases or desires against a traditional pension. Some may not see it as an anchor but rather a leg on the stool of retirement to build upon. You can sell your pension, there are a few places that will pay for them. Ill keep mine.

Moneybags

It’s so exhausting to see this calculation being dead wrong, over and over again. And you thought you were actually correcting me. That is not how you value a pension at all.

20 year retirement, 169k pension is worth 2.2 million at 4.5%. At 2%, it’s worth $2.7 million.
That’s if you actually live 20 years in retirement. This is based on a simple annuity calculation in excel. Dividing the pension payment by an interest rate is incorrect. It values a pension like a perpetuity, which it’s not as the payments stop when you die.

To think it could be worth up to 8.45 million is frighteningly wrong. But this mentality explains why we’ll be living under pay rates from almost 9 years ago while we spend all our negotiating capital attempting to increase a pension that immediately loses value to inflation, and really only benefits those closest to retirement.

Keep the pension, but stop spending time and money trying to increase it. There are other ways to improve retirement for senior pilots.

bitwiser

This is the answer.

Idaho

To me it the B plan is a partnership with the government, the IRS, Congress, the Supreme Court. It also only one leg of the stool, and the government controls it so you own in it partnership with them and the rest of the poplulation, who for the most part own no assets and have little sympathy for "millionaires who don't pay thier fair share." Billionaires who control our government want to raise taxes on people like us and lower our standard of living. Unfortunately we fell for the company line of "you can improve it in the future" and now we are split on retirement due to this. The more I learn about brokerage firms and public markets the more concerned I am about relying heavily on this as a store of wealth. 'A plan' gates could be hit from the right seat, maybe that's a good thing. Why 25 years, lets lower it to 20. Sounds reasonable for a career which is a young man's game. It's time to bring some of the future promises closer to the present, as FedEx declines, rather than moving the goal posts farther away with each contract.

JustInFacts

Ok, using your calculated worth, a pilot would need to save $38k to $46k per year for 25 years to accumulate those values. So, let's average it to $42k per year.

We get a 9% DC plan. If you make $200k in a year, you get $18k of company money plus the A plan contribution for a total of $60k. With an 18% DC plan, you would have to make $333k. The FO rate at Delta wouldn't have you making that without working extra. How is that for QOL, having to work extra to make sure you properly fund your retirement.

A recent study on retirement planning showed that the average healthy male who retired at 65 lived until 88. That is 3 years more than the 20 years you like to plan for. What if you live longer than average? Then you need even more in that 18% DC plan. Maybe you think you will die early and want to leave money to your kids. Then why would you want to work past 60? 96% of our current pilots are 35 or older. That means that 96% of our current pilots could retire in 25 years or less without penalty. If you truely believe in QOL and maximizing your retirement, why would you bank on a plan that makes every dollar earned matter over a high 5 FAE plan. You like to use the worst case scenario of dying early and not leaving as much to your children. I like to use the best case scenario of living a long time in retirement taking trips with my children, grandchildren, and greatgrandchildren. YMMV.

Merle Haggard

In a strange and coincidental twist of fate my financial needs end when I die as well.

Grease

🤣
I suspect your kids will be just fine too with your B fund nest egg available. Unless you blow it all in Vegas, or on lavish vacations in luxury hotels (which I highly encourage)

BlueMoon

Kids shouldn’t rely on their parents to leave them money. Blow it all.