Early Survey Results
08-23-2023, 06:32 PM
#111
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 13
when you adopt and “preach” the position of our adversaries, yes, you have been conditioned!
when you acquiesce to their demands because of fear, yes, you are morally weak.
and who cares if this forum is boring, I don’t come here for entertainment. there is hope we can for once unify in opposition to those who would have us believe that Wall Street and corporate executives deserve a much bigger slice of pie than us. but there will be zero unity when 43 percent side with the opposition.
zero concessions!
industry-leading pay!
A fund tied to IRS limits.
the company can afford these things, and we should demand them, not going around telling our peers why we don’t deserve better.
and yes, volumes ebb and flow, and presently we are ebbing, but the flow will come again, and we should position ourselves accordingly.
Imagine this attitude with an army at war. the enemy degrading us, and your brothers and sisters next to you adopting and reinforcing the enemy’s position. pathetic. you will lose every time. I’m telling you that I got your back, and you’re telling me the “reasons” why you don’t have mine.
when you acquiesce to their demands because of fear, yes, you are morally weak.
and who cares if this forum is boring, I don’t come here for entertainment. there is hope we can for once unify in opposition to those who would have us believe that Wall Street and corporate executives deserve a much bigger slice of pie than us. but there will be zero unity when 43 percent side with the opposition.
zero concessions!
industry-leading pay!
A fund tied to IRS limits.
the company can afford these things, and we should demand them, not going around telling our peers why we don’t deserve better.
and yes, volumes ebb and flow, and presently we are ebbing, but the flow will come again, and we should position ourselves accordingly.
Imagine this attitude with an army at war. the enemy degrading us, and your brothers and sisters next to you adopting and reinforcing the enemy’s position. pathetic. you will lose every time. I’m telling you that I got your back, and you’re telling me the “reasons” why you don’t have mine.
08-24-2023, 03:32 AM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2023
Posts: 437
when you adopt and “preach” the position of our adversaries, yes, you have been conditioned!
when you acquiesce to their demands because of fear, yes, you are morally weak.
and who cares if this forum is boring, I don’t come here for entertainment. there is hope we can for once unify in opposition to those who would have us believe that Wall Street and corporate executives deserve a much bigger slice of pie than us. but there will be zero unity when 43 percent side with the opposition.
zero concessions!
industry-leading pay!
A fund tied to IRS limits.
the company can afford these things, and we should demand them, not going around telling our peers why we don’t deserve better.
and yes, volumes ebb and flow, and presently we are ebbing, but the flow will come again, and we should position ourselves accordingly.
Imagine this attitude with an army at war. the enemy degrading us, and your brothers and sisters next to you adopting and reinforcing the enemy’s position. pathetic. you will lose every time. I’m telling you that I got your back, and you’re telling me the “reasons” why you don’t have mine.
when you acquiesce to their demands because of fear, yes, you are morally weak.
and who cares if this forum is boring, I don’t come here for entertainment. there is hope we can for once unify in opposition to those who would have us believe that Wall Street and corporate executives deserve a much bigger slice of pie than us. but there will be zero unity when 43 percent side with the opposition.
zero concessions!
industry-leading pay!
A fund tied to IRS limits.
the company can afford these things, and we should demand them, not going around telling our peers why we don’t deserve better.
and yes, volumes ebb and flow, and presently we are ebbing, but the flow will come again, and we should position ourselves accordingly.
Imagine this attitude with an army at war. the enemy degrading us, and your brothers and sisters next to you adopting and reinforcing the enemy’s position. pathetic. you will lose every time. I’m telling you that I got your back, and you’re telling me the “reasons” why you don’t have mine.
Being realistic about the amount of time it would take to open every section of the contract isn't acquiescing. Being realistic about the cost of the A plan isn't acquiescing. Being realistic about the NMB and their potential very of negotiations isn't acquiescing.
So, what do you mean when you say "A fund tied to IRS limits?" Do you mean that the A fund is set to IRS limits, or some lower amount? If it is set to IRS limits, how much will that extra $115,000+ per pilot per year for life cost? Give us a dollar amount and the method to back it up. Saying the company can afford it means nothing unless you can prove it.
How are you going to tell the NMB that the we will not negotiate anything that the company wants? People like to throw out industry standard. PBS is industry standard. So, when we open section 25, how do we tell the NMB that we want industry standard reserve, but won't entertain industry standard PBS?
Cute sound bites aren't going to get us a contract. Negotiating with real information will.
08-24-2023, 06:30 AM
#113
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 89
Agree with these thoughts. We’re on the same page with you Anthrax. No one is ready to accept a subpar TA 2.0. As mentioned plenty of times, the tide is changing. Next round all 500 of the most junior pilots on property will have a vote and hundreds off the top won’t. I suppose that is mounting leverage I didn’t speak to in my previous posts. I’ll add it to my quiver of arrows. In any case, we all want the same thing, but some choose to look at where we stand more realistically.
That said, your war analogy. We’re collecting arrows to sling while the company is currently sitting strong in a lineup of Abrams. Maybe not the best time to force an early, unorganized, and weakened attack.
Some asked why the company finally pulled the trigger in May. Well, they have to play nice and negotiate in good faith first of all. Can’t wait forever. But maybe their spaghetti chart had enough intersecting lines to say “now” because they knew the best ratio of older pilots versus new. They saw the bottom of the industry happening which forces gloom. They wanted to push money into the new FY to keep their financial promises in tact with investors. Probably many factors that worked in their favor.
It’s good to see the churn happening with recalls, resignations, etc. We’re building our re-attack and it will be with more ammo than arrows. And maybe it’s just me but I think the pilot group is still highly motivated. Things seem to be moving quicker than in the past.
That said, your war analogy. We’re collecting arrows to sling while the company is currently sitting strong in a lineup of Abrams. Maybe not the best time to force an early, unorganized, and weakened attack.
Some asked why the company finally pulled the trigger in May. Well, they have to play nice and negotiate in good faith first of all. Can’t wait forever. But maybe their spaghetti chart had enough intersecting lines to say “now” because they knew the best ratio of older pilots versus new. They saw the bottom of the industry happening which forces gloom. They wanted to push money into the new FY to keep their financial promises in tact with investors. Probably many factors that worked in their favor.
It’s good to see the churn happening with recalls, resignations, etc. We’re building our re-attack and it will be with more ammo than arrows. And maybe it’s just me but I think the pilot group is still highly motivated. Things seem to be moving quicker than in the past.
08-24-2023, 09:01 AM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,096
The more the company delays will result in even higher motivation and unity. Which equals leverage.
It sucks to wait, but it sucks less than voting in Chapter 11-like concessions and continuing to hemorrhage our QOL.
08-24-2023, 11:51 AM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,338
Good grief, we have some people discussing strategy based on some TV show (I have no idea, because I turned it off a long time ago)…..
It is always “Our” negotiating committee…..who is trying to divide the crew force? You?….probably not but language matters.
There are a lot of reasons we don’t want a furlough…..Even if you’re not on the bubble, or if you are in the “never going to happen crowd”, if you haven’t already, read Chapter 23. What is not addressed in Chapter 23? In a perfect world, I would think a furloughed pilot ought to have a say in a contract that would have the effect of bringing them back on property or keeping them out longer. This is an ALPA thing, not a contract thing though.
Furloughed pilots cannot vote on a contract….ask your Block Reps. Unfortunately, that changes voting demographic calculus.
08-24-2023, 02:22 PM
#116
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 880
In a perfect world, I would think a furloughed pilot ought to have a say in a contract that would have the effect of bringing them back on property or keeping them out longer. This is an ALPA thing, not a contract thing though.
Furloughed pilots cannot vote on a contract….ask your Block Reps. Unfortunately, that changes voting demographic calculus.
Furloughed pilots cannot vote on a contract….ask your Block Reps. Unfortunately, that changes voting demographic calculus.
If FDX furloughs, the furloughees, by and large won't come back - EVER. Anyone who is furloughed under the current pretense would be crazy to come back after such treatment. It probably wouldn't be a great idea for them to vote. Maybe they should be allowed a vote for the first one or two years after date of furlough or until off probation at another ALPA carrier (whichever occurs first).
08-24-2023, 02:35 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,338
Oversimplification. There were many folks in the post 9-11 era that were on furlough for a decade or more with no intention of returning. Should they have been allowed to vote on the contracts at their previous carrier even though they may have been captains at their "new" carrier for years?
If FDX furloughs, the furloughees, by and large won't come back - EVER. Anyone who is furloughed under the current pretense would be crazy to come back after such treatment. It probably wouldn't be a great idea for them to vote. Maybe they should be allowed a vote for the first one or two years after date of furlough or until off probation at another ALPA carrier (whichever occurs first).
If FDX furloughs, the furloughees, by and large won't come back - EVER. Anyone who is furloughed under the current pretense would be crazy to come back after such treatment. It probably wouldn't be a great idea for them to vote. Maybe they should be allowed a vote for the first one or two years after date of furlough or until off probation at another ALPA carrier (whichever occurs first).
08-24-2023, 02:48 PM
#118
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 880
I won't bother with most of this. Retirements were lost in bankruptcy courts under laws that have since changed. I'm not sure what your point is, but nobody furloughed while profitable as FDX (or FDX ALPA) is threatening.
08-24-2023, 04:59 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,989
Just because pax airlines usually go into the red when they furlough, why is that a metric in this discussion? That's not our industry. I hope the F never happens and I hope demand returns quickly. But, no corporation in a free market is under any obligation to keep employees on the payroll just because they're making money even though they are over-manned (assuming that's the case).
08-24-2023, 07:12 PM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 182
What does profitability have to do with anything? If a company can get the job done and return those profits with 5000 pilots and they have 5700, explain why profitability matters in this discussion?
Just because pax airlines usually go into the red when they furlough, why is that a metric in this discussion? That's not our industry. I hope the F never happens and I hope demand returns quickly. But, no corporation in a free market is under any obligation to keep employees on the payroll just because they're making money even though they are over-manned (assuming that's the case).
Just because pax airlines usually go into the red when they furlough, why is that a metric in this discussion? That's not our industry. I hope the F never happens and I hope demand returns quickly. But, no corporation in a free market is under any obligation to keep employees on the payroll just because they're making money even though they are over-manned (assuming that's the case).
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