Originally Posted by Flying Boxes

I think you just described how section 24 works! I your hypothetical scenario the senior pilot got what he bid in previous bid based on seniority. In subsequent bid, since he is not being bumped out of his seat/base he can only go to seats with vacancies.

if he is bumped (or stands in) then he can go whatever ever his seniority can hold.

Originally Posted by threeighteen

No, here's the problem, if a pilot is bumped, under the new section 24 rules, that pilot can only go to seats with vacancies... The company gets to manipulate the vacancies/staffing level however they want.

So what if, theoretically, the only seats with vacancies were 757 FO? An MD11 CA could be forced to 757 FO under the current language, while pilots junior to that pilot would get to keep their 777 and 767 CA slots.

That's the problem with the new section 24 language. We gave up so much just so a handful of dudes could feel like they are picking the month they train in, except they can only pick the month when the company feels like offering training to them, so that's really more of the illusion of choice. It would be better to go back to when we had passover pay, bumping rights, and could trade training slots.

Originally Posted by Flying Boxes

MD-11CL & MD-11 CA did go to B777 CM & B777CA. Because they LAX is closing and every LAX captain is senior to most junior B777 captain in MEM & ANC. Seniority is honored even though the # of B777CM is being reduced .the junior captains now can bump anyone off any seat there seniority can hold!

if a senior pilot that is not in seat being reduced, his/her only option is a vacancy IF their seniority can hold it.

Originally Posted by threeighteen

Yes in those specific examples it honored seniority. However it doesn't in all examples anymore. It used to under the old sec 24, now it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Flying Boxes

Clearly show how it didn’t! Give an example please.

Originally Posted by threeighteen

Several JUNIOR pilots who were awarded 757 captain but never trained got 777 FO seats while dudes that fly the same airplane as they do, and are several hundred names higher on the seniority list are not getting 777FO seats. That's not honoring seniority.

Originally Posted by Flying Boxes

But they did bid B757 Captain when those more senior pilots did not. If the more senior pilots had bid the seats, they would be able to get B777FO.

if you didn’t upgrade for QOL, then that is on you. You want to not be held accountable for your decisions and how it affects your career. The rules are written for you to know and follow. Bump and flush is way more tragic than this system.

Originally Posted by threeighteen

Bump and flush is how seniority and this industry works, and how this company worked until 2015.

If someone was holding out for 777 FO and someone junior to them gets it instead, that's significantly more tragic. Their seniority was violated because someone junior to them was in the right place at the right time. It's not right.

Bump and flush is the nature of the biz. Just like furloughs. You need to be ready for both.

Originally Posted by threeighteen

Yes I do.

Here's how other airlines do displacement bids:

Starting at the top, you get keep your seat unless you can no longer keep your base/equipment/seat. If you can't keep your base/equipment/seat, then you get to bid for ANY seat that your systemwide seniority can still hold. If you end up bumping someone out of that seat, then they get to bid for whatever base/equipment/seat they can hold, and if they bump someone, then the same thing happens. It's the only fair way to do it that honors seniority.

Your argument supports these two F'd up things that are currently happening here:

"because a certain seat that a senior pilot could have held wasn't their first choice, they should be stuck with whatever has vacancies while pilots junior to them get to hold what was the senior pilot's second choice on the last bid"

"because someone hired 3 years ago waited to hold a certain base/equipment seat (lets say 777FO) instead of bidding 757 captain, a pilot junior to them that bid 757 captain should get 777 FO before them"

Because we basically gave up displacement bids with the 2015 and everything is now a system bid both of those things are happening under the current system and that is beyond screwed up. What if the senior pilot never even got to train on the seat they wanted due to the screwed up nature of our bidding/training? Now they are getting pushed out out of that and can only go to seats that have vacancies... while the junior pilot gets to keep a seat that their seniority honestly can't hold and your only argument for them keeping it is "well that should have been the senior pilot's first choice...." if you can't see how F'd up that is you need help.

It would be one thing to allow a junior pilot to keep a seat that a senior pilot passed up for QOL on a normal system bid, but on a bid where base/equipment/seat are being eliminated and pilots are getting kicked out of their number one choice, it's not the same; and once again, if you can't see that, you need help.

Originally Posted by Flying Boxes

So which method is correct? In the second quote above (which is actually your earlier post) you described exactly how sec 24 works now. Where you're upset is that pilots not being bumped can only fill vacancies as their seniority allows. This bid does not have many vacancies.

Bump and Flush is NOT how other legacy airlines run things so better get comfortable with it. And yes, I have been bumped and flushed here couple of times. The industry standard language is better for the crew force in my option. Disagreeing with your option means just that. No need to insult me because your feelings are hurt.

Originally Posted by threeighteen

No, here's the problem, if a pilot is bumped, under the new section 24 rules, that pilot can only go to seats with vacancies... The company gets to manipulate the vacancies/staffing level however they want.

So what if, theoretically, the only seats with vacancies were 757 FO? An MD11 CA could be forced to 757 FO under the current language, while pilots junior to that pilot would get to keep their 777 and 767 CA slots.

That's the problem with the new section 24 language. We gave up so much to the company just so a handful of dudes could feel like they are picking the month they train in, except they can only pick the month when the company feels like offering training to them, so it's purely the illusion of choice. It would be better to go back to when we had passover pay, bumping rights, and could trade training slots.