Tuck

No they found zero real concessions. There are some out there that think things like turning long call reserve from 12 hours to 18 hours is a concession but there are always idiots in every airline.

The AIP barely passed because a number of MEC members thought they should continue bargaining to get the defined benefit plan they wanted. The TA overwhelmingly passed because it's an awesome TA and huge support. I imagine it'll have huge support from the membership as well. There are no concessions - they didn't achieve everything they wanted just like we won't achieve anywhere near everything we want on our very limited in scope openers.

pinseeker

So, what is a concession? It seems to be interpreted differently by different people. Some I have talked to thing that agreeing to withdraw their existing scope grievances was a concession. Someone on these forums said that DAL MEC agreed to give up those grievances in order to improve their scope language. Kind of confusing though, because I thought that you shouldn't give up something to get something. Anyway, though people who have told me that they don't like that concession, they are still reading the entire document and don't plan on allowing one small item to determine their vote on the whole package.

Scoop

A couple of points:

There were two MEC votes on this, the first to accept Managements "supposal" as an AIP was 9-8 in favor. The 8 negatives wanted to keep bargaining. The second vote to pass the actual TA was approved 14-3 by the identical MEC members. The folks who changed their opinion weren't happy about how the AIP went down but now don't see an alternative path to a better deal. That and positive feedback played into their changing votes.

As far as concessions, it is probably in the eye of the beholder. Did we make concessions on our negotiating goals - absolutely. Did we make any concessions as to what we currently have as a contract - I would say not really and will explain but once again it is in the eye of the beholder.

For example guys have been asking for holiday pay and pre-posted premium time since Orville and Wilbur were arguing over PIC time, and we achieved some nice improvements in this regard. However folks who fear their ability to sharp-shoot short notice premium time will be decreased are screaming like stuck pigs - "Huge Concession!" It is not really a concession but to them it may well be. If you are a commuter and can now pick up premium time when you couldn't previously you see the same thing as a gain.

I previously read how someone posted that selecting a preference for a training slot was a "concession" since it was just a preference, but currently we can't even preference it so how is that a concession?

Bottom line - in my 24 years as Delta this is by far the best QOL deal with the least amount of concessions. Hard to say zero concessions but if your definition is contractually making things less favorable for Pilots I would say yes, No concessions. If you are saying no second and third order effects that can be conceived as a concessions I would say who knows?

Full disclosure - This deal exceeded what I thought we could achieve and I intend to vote yes.

Scoop

Noworkallplay

Thank Scoop for posting. Did you notice how many of our notorious posters stopped after you laid the truth down. They swore up and down that no one at Delta thought there was any concessions. You pointed out many think there is. You will hear some complaining about our training bid system. They will say it’s the worst in the industry. Ask them how they would like to not even be able to bid a set training date like at Delta. Appreciate the insight. Hopefully we can get a contract soon and help raise the tide in the industry.

schloppy1

You seriously have to be kidding me. There’s over 100 of us waiting to train for two plus years. Month after month I bid for my training date and was denied for new hires. Then a new bid began training and left us in the dust. FedEx is definitely not getting their retainer’s worth out of you.

UnusualAttitude

We have the worst Filling of Crew Positions or system bidding of any airline in the industry. That isn't in question. Ask the pilots that were awarded a lateral move to the 777 on the 20-02 bid and still haven't gone to training while hundreds of new hires have flown the 777 in their place. Ask Delta what their longest seat lock is? I'll help, longest seat lock at Delta is 24 months and that is only if you were required to go through a full program. Seat locks at Purple could be up to 60 months and they aren't even seat lock, in our contract we have bid award restrictions. If you are even one day away from completing your bid freeze when a system bid closes you will not be awarded a desired position and it could be years before another system bid occurs. Bid for training? It's more of a request and then if you are denied you must bid every single month continuously or lose SDP. What if you bid for training in February, were denied, and had an important obligation in June. Well, if you don't keep bidding in June you stop with SDP. Ability to bid for your training date at Delta is also far less important because they have system bids every few months. Purple, system bids come around with far less frequency, typically only every 18-24 months.

UnusualAttitude

It is really a shame that more people are not aware of what has happened to you guys. There were ZERO changes to this in the negotiations. This has a much greater effect on First Officers and yet, no attempt to rectify a very poor job of negotiating the section in Contract 2015.

I should have mentioned, this weak contract language is exacerbated when we have guys stuck in categories with BLG's that are 20 hours less than the position that they should have been trained to long ago. Really unfortunate.

Noworkallplay

I agree you guys are getting the short end of the stick. I would like to see changes in the way we train also. My bigger point is other airlines have their issues with training also. Are you not getting an SDP payment or New Hire Jr Activation pay? Wasn’t there also some additional agreement that was done that gives additional money above those amounts also?

FXLAX

So delta will go from not having a the ability to preference a training date to having that ability. Like he said, that is not a concession. We have the worst system bidding in the industry, even before this gain for delta pilots. And the other thing he mentioned that some believe is a concession is the added pay for working on a holiday because some pilots will not be able to pick up premium flying on those days. If we got holiday pay and some pilots here said that was a concession, would YOU agree? Of course you wouldn’t, and that’s not because you don’t seem to take the pilots point of view, it it’s because any reasonable pilot would not say that is a concession.

He came up with TWO items, one of which is not a concession (training date preference) and the other which would be asinine to think it was a concession. He actually made the NO CONCESSION case stronger. Are you doe concessions in our TA?

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That may alleviate the pay issue but what about QOL? Face it, the system sucks worse than anywhere in the industry. Do you agree?

StarClipper

You keep putting lipstick on a pig and trying to convince people it a beauty pageant. That’s not going to work. We all know what it is no matter how you try to spin it.