Negotiations
02-19-2022, 10:44 AM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 503
But with our NC drooling for pancakes, we are having a hard time standing arm in arm. If we had a focused "Improve the A plan" theme then it's easy to stand up and toe the line.
02-19-2022, 10:46 AM
#172
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 880
Listened to PUB call this week and talked to my rep and a few others after. My takeaways:
- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company
The meeting was short. Not very many questions.
The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.
In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.
Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.
- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company
The meeting was short. Not very many questions.
The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.
In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.
Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.
02-19-2022, 10:59 AM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
EXACTLY!!!!!
The crewmembers behavior will drive the product at the end of negotiations. Currently that behavior supports our current contract. It says they are content with what we currently have. It is in opposition to large retirement gains and pay increases. It supports 3 year negotiations. So when looking at a place to place blame, look no further than your fellow crewmembers who are going above and beyond doing extra month after month. I would hate to be the Negotiations Committee or MEC fighting for gains with a bunch of selfish pilots cutting their knees off.
Chime all the excuses for this behavior below…….
The crewmembers behavior will drive the product at the end of negotiations. Currently that behavior supports our current contract. It says they are content with what we currently have. It is in opposition to large retirement gains and pay increases. It supports 3 year negotiations. So when looking at a place to place blame, look no further than your fellow crewmembers who are going above and beyond doing extra month after month. I would hate to be the Negotiations Committee or MEC fighting for gains with a bunch of selfish pilots cutting their knees off.
Chime all the excuses for this behavior below…….
02-19-2022, 12:32 PM
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,396
Perhaps if the NC were not trying to sell us the pancake plan, more pilots would support them.
Perhaps if the NC were honest about what their goals are with respect to how to improve the retirement section, more would support them.
When I am fed BS surveys, and being told what we are bargaining for is a "secret", I am reminded of the crap sandwich they sold us in 2015.
I know there are many on the property that were not here in 2015, but we need to do our due diligence, and not necessarily believe what our union tells us.
It is pretty sad when you can't trust your own union, but that is what is going on here.
The surest way to get what we want is to vote down the first TA if it does not meet our goals. That would show our resolve.
If it passes again at 57 percent, we have lost.
In the past, the company has dragged out negotiations for two years past the amendable date of every contract. I don't think that will work out as well for them this time, as it gives more time for others to get a contract, and more time for inflation to affect us, which means we will demand more.
Mark my words, I want a good contract, but the NC is not doing the crew force any favors by the way they are acting.
I had a new guy tell me the 3200 new hires since the last contract would dictate the terms of our retirement to the old guys.
This, after we gave up a lot to keep one retirement in 2015, after we could have thrown them under the bus.
You want to split the crew force, just give the new hires a better deal than the old guys, and you will have infighting like you wouldn't believe.
The union needs to improve retirement for all of us, not just enough of us to get to 51%.
I am prepared to vote no. I will have to be convinced to vote yes.
I shouldn't have to worry about "my" union lying to me, but I am, and I have a huge problem with that.
Perhaps if the NC were honest about what their goals are with respect to how to improve the retirement section, more would support them.
When I am fed BS surveys, and being told what we are bargaining for is a "secret", I am reminded of the crap sandwich they sold us in 2015.
I know there are many on the property that were not here in 2015, but we need to do our due diligence, and not necessarily believe what our union tells us.
It is pretty sad when you can't trust your own union, but that is what is going on here.
The surest way to get what we want is to vote down the first TA if it does not meet our goals. That would show our resolve.
If it passes again at 57 percent, we have lost.
In the past, the company has dragged out negotiations for two years past the amendable date of every contract. I don't think that will work out as well for them this time, as it gives more time for others to get a contract, and more time for inflation to affect us, which means we will demand more.
Mark my words, I want a good contract, but the NC is not doing the crew force any favors by the way they are acting.
I had a new guy tell me the 3200 new hires since the last contract would dictate the terms of our retirement to the old guys.
This, after we gave up a lot to keep one retirement in 2015, after we could have thrown them under the bus.
You want to split the crew force, just give the new hires a better deal than the old guys, and you will have infighting like you wouldn't believe.
The union needs to improve retirement for all of us, not just enough of us to get to 51%.
I am prepared to vote no. I will have to be convinced to vote yes.
I shouldn't have to worry about "my" union lying to me, but I am, and I have a huge problem with that.
02-19-2022, 01:02 PM
#175
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
Listened to PUB call this week and talked to my rep and a few others after. My takeaways:
- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company
The meeting was short. Not very many questions.
The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.
In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.
Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.
- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company
The meeting was short. Not very many questions.
The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.
In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.
Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.
Looking at the openers document for section 5 it appears everything we asked for in that section is fairly vanilla, so I would assume that section was easy to negotiate. Per diem is still open in that section as Pat said due to inflation and monetary items generally happen at the end.
As for the timeline it seems achievable to me. If you get the work rules done in the next two bargaining session in march then all you are left with is retirement and pay. That's two months to hash that out. I think this is what they said in regards to the timeline still being achievable. At least that was my takeaway.
In the end we wont see the company move at all until our pilot group grows a pair. Currently most pilots I fly with do lots of extra. This will incentivize the company to stall on monetary pieces. We will get what we are willing to fight for. Currently most of our pilots are not doing anything to help achieve a good contract within a 1 year timeline. Most are doing max draft/AVA and vacation buy back gets filled every month. So what does that say to you? If I was the company I wouldn't move on retirement either until I had to. As of now our pilot groups behavior says we are ok with the current contract and retirement.
Last edited by Noworkallplay; 02-19-2022 at 01:18 PM.
02-19-2022, 08:01 PM
#176
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
None of this matter, just vote no if it doesn’t have what we are asking for period. Whether people fly draft or not, if the union put out an unsatisfactory TA, just vote no. The company will get the message. The problem is the union will try to sell a sh$t sandwich like they did in 2015.
This is a bad idea and will get nothing. The only side that gains from continuing with the current contract (extended by default) is the company. They will be delighted if we vote no over and over.
Pressure is the only way to get results. How and when that pressure is applied is up to the line pilots. If your personal strategy is to continue doing what you do and just vote no, it’ll be 2-3 years. Who knows what the economy and operating environment will be like then. Right now we have more capital and leverage than any time in history. The company is healthy and profitable. The pilot shortage is peaking. What we did during COVID has gone largely unrewarded. All of that will be different in 2-3 years. If we don’t put the pressure on right now, I think we will miss out on an opportunity for a great contract.
Last edited by Spitch; 02-19-2022 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Corrections.
02-19-2022, 10:23 PM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
This is a bad idea and will get nothing. The only side that gains from continuing with the current contract (extended by default) is the company. They will be delighted if we vote no over and over.
Pressure is the only way to get results. How and when that pressure is applied is up to the line pilots. If your personal strategy is to continue doing what you do and just vote no, it’ll be 2-3 years. Who knows what the economy and operating environment will be like then. Right now we have more capital and leverage than any time in history. The company is healthy and profitable. The pilot shortage is peaking. What we did during COVID has gone largely unrewarded. All of that will be different in 2-3 years. If we don’t put the pressure on right now, I think we will miss out on an opportunity for a great contract.
Pressure is the only way to get results. How and when that pressure is applied is up to the line pilots. If your personal strategy is to continue doing what you do and just vote no, it’ll be 2-3 years. Who knows what the economy and operating environment will be like then. Right now we have more capital and leverage than any time in history. The company is healthy and profitable. The pilot shortage is peaking. What we did during COVID has gone largely unrewarded. All of that will be different in 2-3 years. If we don’t put the pressure on right now, I think we will miss out on an opportunity for a great contract.
02-20-2022, 05:23 AM
#178
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 880
If the MEC ever wants to show some resolve here's an idea. The next time the company says "that's the best we can do", send it to a vote with a recommendation to vote no. Let them see where we stand as a group on their "best offer".
02-20-2022, 05:25 AM
#179
maxing the min/Moderator
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: 757
Posts: 1,416
How do you think a mediator would view this action?
02-20-2022, 06:05 AM
#180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,396
The company will have a difficult time operating without it, and we might be able to get something back for it.
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