Negotiations
02-17-2022, 09:14 PM
#161
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
The pancake plan is crap, it’s based upon a bunch of “what if’s” and maximization of income. The company doesn’t even want it.
If it’s impossible to negotiate a better A plan, get the B plan pumped up as much as possible, with cash over cap. If the company is determined to let the A plan die on the vine due to inflation, make it cost them.
But don’t consider the current A plan to be worth nothing. It’s still worth a lot, like having a 2.5-3 million dollar annuity. For me and my spouse, we’re getting 290K per year till age 67 (SS leveling option) which pays the bills. Forget the dicey pancake plan, get the B plan increased. The pilots always get screwed when it comes down to the fine print.
If it’s impossible to negotiate a better A plan, get the B plan pumped up as much as possible, with cash over cap. If the company is determined to let the A plan die on the vine due to inflation, make it cost them.
But don’t consider the current A plan to be worth nothing. It’s still worth a lot, like having a 2.5-3 million dollar annuity. For me and my spouse, we’re getting 290K per year till age 67 (SS leveling option) which pays the bills. Forget the dicey pancake plan, get the B plan increased. The pilots always get screwed when it comes down to the fine print.
02-18-2022, 06:28 PM
#165
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
I talked with my rep this week and I quote “we do not have a PSPP plan on the table”. The PSPP was dead a few years ago. He was clear they are attempting to increase the FAE and also looking at other qualified pension plans. A flat dollar formula like UPS has is another method that comes to mind.
02-18-2022, 07:23 PM
#166
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2022
Posts: 6
Listened to PUB call this week and talked to my rep and a few others after. My takeaways:
- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company
The meeting was short. Not very many questions.
The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.
In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.
Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.
- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company
The meeting was short. Not very many questions.
The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.
In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.
Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.
02-18-2022, 08:14 PM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 334
This will never change
...........and there is NO reason for the company to EVER move on retirement. We help them out too much. Just go through the 777 pilot's calendars and look at the all of the w h o r e s who are flying extra, volunteering to extend (up to 30 days in some cases), agreeing to FAR extensions (especially now with the Russia debacle). FEDEX is pretty much the same as Atlas right now, and pilots are taking it willingly. Guys may be making a ton of money right now, but we are setting precedents which are going to be difficult to change.
02-18-2022, 08:29 PM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,123
...........and there is NO reason for the company to EVER move on retirement. We help them out too much. Just go through the 777 pilot's calendars and look at the all of the w h o r e s who are flying extra, volunteering to extend (up to 30 days in some cases), agreeing to FAR extensions (especially now with the Russia debacle). FEDEX is pretty much the same as Atlas right now, and pilots are taking it willingly. Guys may be making a ton of money right now, but we are setting precedents which are going to be difficult to change.
02-19-2022, 07:53 AM
#169
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
............
But don’t consider the current A plan to be worth nothing. It’s still worth a lot, like having a 2.5-3 million dollar annuity. For me and my spouse, we’re getting 290K per year till age 67 (SS leveling option) which pays the bills. Forget the dicey pancake plan, get the B plan increased. The pilots always get screwed when it comes down to the fine print.
But don’t consider the current A plan to be worth nothing. It’s still worth a lot, like having a 2.5-3 million dollar annuity. For me and my spouse, we’re getting 290K per year till age 67 (SS leveling option) which pays the bills. Forget the dicey pancake plan, get the B plan increased. The pilots always get screwed when it comes down to the fine print.
Many here over the years have advocated for a just "show me the money" B plan only retirement, aka post bankruptcy airline type. The discussion about improving the caps on the A plan are all about decreasing the pilots personal exposure to retirement risk vs the new reality in America where most younger employees of (non government) employ are carrying all the risk. The dicey pancake plan ( a loaded opinion about a plan that no one here seems to know anything about but many know its a crappy deal) may or may not have the 100% no pilot risk that may here expect from the A plan, but as you know only too well, the company is dead set against improving the caps on the A plan as its currently written. Between a rock and a hard place. Give your union reps and the people tasked to negotiate, the benefit of the doubt that they are working for the best solution on your behalf. The options to pressure the company are limited, as much by the individual actions of your fellow crewmembers, as they are by laws that are increasingly hostile to collective bargaining. Good luck!
02-19-2022, 10:40 AM
#170
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
This mind set prevailed during the lead up to contract 2015. With no increase in the A plan last time, the majority considered a 1% increase in the B plan, with a further 1% in year 4, an acceptable compromise to a static A plan. Do the math, if you make 300K, that's an additional $3000 per year the company came up with per 1%. Over 6 years, if you averaged 300K, Fedex included a whopping 24 thousand dollars! increase to your B plan bank over the course of that contact. Oh course you might have received more, having worked a lot more, but still would have been subject to the IRS caps Fedex loves to use to limited how much they will contribute to your total retirement.
Many here over the years have advocated for a just "show me the money" B plan only retirement, aka post bankruptcy airline type. The discussion about improving the caps on the A plan are all about decreasing the pilots personal exposure to retirement risk vs the new reality in America where most younger employees of (non government) employ are carrying all the risk. The dicey pancake plan ( a loaded opinion about a plan that no one here seems to know anything about but many know its a crappy deal) may or may not have the 100% no pilot risk that may here expect from the A plan, but as you know only too well, the company is dead set against improving the caps on the A plan as its currently written. Between a rock and a hard place. Give your union reps and the people tasked to negotiate, the benefit of the doubt that they are working for the best solution on your behalf. The options to pressure the company are limited, as much by the individual actions of your fellow crewmembers, as they are by laws that are increasingly hostile to collective bargaining. Good luck!
Many here over the years have advocated for a just "show me the money" B plan only retirement, aka post bankruptcy airline type. The discussion about improving the caps on the A plan are all about decreasing the pilots personal exposure to retirement risk vs the new reality in America where most younger employees of (non government) employ are carrying all the risk. The dicey pancake plan ( a loaded opinion about a plan that no one here seems to know anything about but many know its a crappy deal) may or may not have the 100% no pilot risk that may here expect from the A plan, but as you know only too well, the company is dead set against improving the caps on the A plan as its currently written. Between a rock and a hard place. Give your union reps and the people tasked to negotiate, the benefit of the doubt that they are working for the best solution on your behalf. The options to pressure the company are limited, as much by the individual actions of your fellow crewmembers, as they are by laws that are increasingly hostile to collective bargaining. Good luck!
The crewmembers behavior will drive the product at the end of negotiations. Currently that behavior supports our current contract. It says they are content with what we currently have. It is in opposition to large retirement gains and pay increases. It supports 3 year negotiations. So when looking at a place to place blame, look no further than your fellow crewmembers who are going above and beyond doing extra month after month. I would hate to be the Negotiations Committee or MEC fighting for gains with a bunch of selfish pilots cutting their knees off.
Chime all the excuses for this behavior below…….
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