What's the Latest at ASA/Expressjet?
09-15-2014, 06:23 AM
#7301
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 828
I missed your admission of error on the pay rates.
No, we're on here to respond to the hate, misinformation, and baseless attacks from the ERJ side. It seems to be a common trend over there to a.) refuse to admit when one is wrong, and b.) feel that compromise means start doing things your way. Then you guys come out with the Jedi mind tricks telling us we're the bad guys. Then you wonder why we're in an epic of a failed merger.
Fortunately, management knows which side is reasonable. So keep up the attacks. You're only hurting yourselves.
No, we're on here to respond to the hate, misinformation, and baseless attacks from the ERJ side. It seems to be a common trend over there to a.) refuse to admit when one is wrong, and b.) feel that compromise means start doing things your way. Then you guys come out with the Jedi mind tricks telling us we're the bad guys. Then you wonder why we're in an epic of a failed merger.
Fortunately, management knows which side is reasonable. So keep up the attacks. You're only hurting yourselves.
09-15-2014, 06:35 AM
#7302
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 339
So do you know this for 100% fact? Have you been in the room where a company representative has blatantly said "we are looking for pay cuts" or are you just assuming that based "on the regional environment?"
Ok, so if the new TA (if we ever get one...) has pay cuts in it, we vote it down again, it's that simple.
09-15-2014, 06:54 AM
#7303
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: CRJ
Posts: 419
I'll throw out one. In my opinion, a regional FO should have no trouble pulling down $65,000 + a year. Will we see that ever? Probably not, but that's what I feel is fair for a 50 seat jet.
09-15-2014, 07:11 AM
#7304
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,951
I'm not saying that's unreasonable or unfair. I think it's both reasonable and fair. The question is how do we negotiate that in an environment where Envoy is losing planes to a PSA who entered into predatory bargaining, and endeavor took pay cuts with a gun to their heads. We are currently the industry leaders in compensation. (Yes, Hou757, I said COMPENSATION not "PAY" since you don't seem to understand the difference).
09-15-2014, 07:41 AM
#7306
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 339
So would that be 1st year or 2nd+? and it would correspond to a Captain rate of $91K+ with our 60% scheme.
I'm not saying that's unreasonable or unfair. I think it's both reasonable and fair. The question is how do we negotiate that in an environment where Envoy is losing planes to a PSA who entered into predatory bargaining, and endeavor took pay cuts with a gun to their heads. We are currently the industry leaders in compensation. (Yes, Hou757, I said COMPENSATION not "PAY" since you don't seem to understand the difference).
I'm not saying that's unreasonable or unfair. I think it's both reasonable and fair. The question is how do we negotiate that in an environment where Envoy is losing planes to a PSA who entered into predatory bargaining, and endeavor took pay cuts with a gun to their heads. We are currently the industry leaders in compensation. (Yes, Hou757, I said COMPENSATION not "PAY" since you don't seem to understand the difference).
Sad but true, we are the industry leader in re: to compensation and/or hourly rates. I believe that Air Wisconsin has higher rates than us on the -200, but yeah, for all intents and purposes we are industry leading. Year 8 FO on the -700 makes $46.98/hour...GoJet or Republic doesn't even hit $40 for flying the same equipment....let that set in for a moment...doesn't even hit $40 for a topped out FO...wow.
09-15-2014, 08:01 AM
#7307
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: e190
Posts: 929
Most Erj guys will give back about 10-15% in total compensation just based off of health care, retirement defined contribution, and a brand new, untested, and loop hole ridden scheduling section. Captain Tony you are arguing semantics. Sure they aren't asking for "pay" rate concessions but they are 100% looking for concessions in total compensation even from the ASA side. You are sounding more and more like the union guys who were selling the last TA via word play.
You said the Erj MEC is endangering our careers but is this really a career worth having? Starting salary for bus drivers in the northeast is 50-70 k a year. How do we have pilots making 30,000? You are a lifer, so you inherently look at this differently than 75% of our pilots. We don't want to go along to get along to protect the lifers, we want a career worth having. Yes we know the sky is falling and people will be out of work.
You said the Erj MEC is endangering our careers but is this really a career worth having? Starting salary for bus drivers in the northeast is 50-70 k a year. How do we have pilots making 30,000? You are a lifer, so you inherently look at this differently than 75% of our pilots. We don't want to go along to get along to protect the lifers, we want a career worth having. Yes we know the sky is falling and people will be out of work.
09-15-2014, 09:07 AM
#7308
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,951
Most Erj guys will give back about 10-15% in total compensation just based off of health care, retirement defined contribution, and a brand new, untested, and loop hole ridden scheduling section. Captain Tony you are arguing semantics. Sure they aren't asking for "pay" rate concessions but they are 100% looking for concessions in total compensation even from the ASA side. You are sounding more and more like the union guys who were selling the last TA via word play.
You said the Erj MEC is endangering our careers but is this really a career worth having? Starting salary for bus drivers in the northeast is 50-70 k a year. How do we have pilots making 30,000? You are a lifer, so you inherently look at this differently than 75% of our pilots. We don't want to go along to get along to protect the lifers, we want a career worth having. Yes we know the sky is falling and people will be out of work.
You said the Erj MEC is endangering our careers but is this really a career worth having? Starting salary for bus drivers in the northeast is 50-70 k a year. How do we have pilots making 30,000? You are a lifer, so you inherently look at this differently than 75% of our pilots. We don't want to go along to get along to protect the lifers, we want a career worth having. Yes we know the sky is falling and people will be out of work.
09-15-2014, 11:11 AM
#7310
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: 737 Left
Posts: 1,827
As far as a reasonable income is concerned, the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US in 2012 was a little over 51k per year (http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr12-02.pdf). Our FO's, not counting first year pay, make between 35k and upwards of 65k(for guys who work really hard). So, although I agree we are underpaid, it really isn't as bad as so many people would like to argue it is.
That being said, the entry requirements into the field should provide a household income that is better than average, which is probably not sustainable in the Regional market. I think 35-40k for first year is completely reasonable (roughly 39-45 bucks an hour), as well as pay rates in the right seat in the $60-$70 an hour range by year 8, although a little over $55/hr would represent roughly 3% per year to year 8. Additionally, are careers are limited by the seniority system, and there should be some compensation for that at some point. This is the only industry I have every been personally involved in where doing a good job doesn't really matter in relation to career advancement.
Final note; most people stay because they can't reasonably go anywhere else. The guys that are here continue to stay because they haven't gotten a better paying flying job elsewhere, or their flying skills are just not marketable for anything else in the free market, and it's easier to complain than to get other skills.
That being said, the entry requirements into the field should provide a household income that is better than average, which is probably not sustainable in the Regional market. I think 35-40k for first year is completely reasonable (roughly 39-45 bucks an hour), as well as pay rates in the right seat in the $60-$70 an hour range by year 8, although a little over $55/hr would represent roughly 3% per year to year 8. Additionally, are careers are limited by the seniority system, and there should be some compensation for that at some point. This is the only industry I have every been personally involved in where doing a good job doesn't really matter in relation to career advancement.
Final note; most people stay because they can't reasonably go anywhere else. The guys that are here continue to stay because they haven't gotten a better paying flying job elsewhere, or their flying skills are just not marketable for anything else in the free market, and it's easier to complain than to get other skills.
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