What's the Latest at ASA/Expressjet?
07-02-2012, 02:28 PM
#331
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
The Delta TA passed a few days ago, and when I came to work today all the 50-seaters had vanished just like the ERJ pilots warned us! 
The only thing that suggests PMASA will lose tons of airframes and furlough and downgrade over the three-year scope transition period is the ignorance-flavored kool-aid coming out of the Houston ALPA offices.
The only thing that suggests PMASA will lose tons of airframes and furlough and downgrade over the three-year scope transition period is the ignorance-flavored kool-aid coming out of the Houston ALPA offices.
07-02-2012, 02:57 PM
#332
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
Let's see if can be clear enough with you and all the other institutionalized pilots on the CRJ side:
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE PILOTS TO KEEP THE COMPANY PROFITABLE, IT IS MANAGEMENT'S JOB.
Therein the two differences in cultures. The crj side is drowning in the kool aid, and yet no one can publicly post any numbers that support that the ERJ contract (and further gains) are not cost effective. On the ERJ side we understand that the job of the pilot is to fly the aircraft safely within company policies and guidelines, not keeping the company afloat, Jerry gets paid a lot more money than we do to manage this "thuper" regional.
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE PILOTS TO KEEP THE COMPANY PROFITABLE, IT IS MANAGEMENT'S JOB.
Therein the two differences in cultures. The crj side is drowning in the kool aid, and yet no one can publicly post any numbers that support that the ERJ contract (and further gains) are not cost effective. On the ERJ side we understand that the job of the pilot is to fly the aircraft safely within company policies and guidelines, not keeping the company afloat, Jerry gets paid a lot more money than we do to manage this "thuper" regional.
Alright, EDITED BY ACL, let's look at a couple case studies in which the unions ended up shooting themselves in the foot with this mentality.
The Boeing machinists union has for decades been a very hostile/greedy group that chanted that very line about how the company should keep itself profitable but they also deserve huge wage hikes. The two are mutually exclusive, and the union discovered that the hard way when their jobs were sent to non-union workers in South Carolina. Oops. Maybe they should have played ball so they could keep their jobs.
The auto industry was brought down mainly by greedy unions. We don't need to go into detail because everyone knows how well compensated auto machinists were when they helped cause GM and Chrysler to go tango uniform.
Yes, it's the pilots jobs to look out for themselves, but not to the extent that it brings the company down. Obviously the company would never sign a TA that would put it out of business. But say--hypothetically--some XJTALPA-flavored kool-aid drinkers are able to organize pilots to defeat a reasonable, competitive TA (hypothetically, since we don't know whether the TA will be reasonable or competitive yet, because we haven't read it, and therefore we can't legitimately say whether we'll vote yes or no), the company will either have to waste a lot of time negotiating a new TA that raises our costs significantly and prices us--and our jobs--out of the market, or continue with the status quo which may end with the same result for one or both pre-merger sides.
Yes, airline pilots deserve to be paid more than they are, and yes we deserve mainline-style work rules at the regionals. But we are living in reality, not a Democrat/left-wing dreamland where we get everything we deserve. There are snakes in the grass in the form of shady ultra low cost regionals (e.g., BlowJetz) that will take our flying in an instant if we price ourselves out of the market. And then you won't have your "snapback" because you don't even have a job.
And believe me, knowing Jerry and the St George gang, things will surely *not* work out in PMXJT's and reacharound's favor if they scuttle the TA. That's just the reality of the situation.
Last edited by acl65pilot; 07-02-2012 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Tos
07-02-2012, 03:04 PM
#333
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 268
Just me thinking out loud, let's say that is for AA flying... The Bahamas don't require overwater ops neither does EYW! So if it was to take the flying from Eagle in MIA I don't see a reason (the birds Eagle have in MIA don't have the rafts since we don't serve any routes that require it) If it was to take the flying for Eagle in SJU, the -200 can't get in and out of the airports that AMR would need Tortolla and Dominica. Also Eagle is certified for overwater ops but the life rafts have been removed so we must comply with the 50 nm of any pebble! How would the 200 do with all the life rafts on board? I mean what performance penalty would it take?
07-02-2012, 03:13 PM
#334
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
the FO's are worried about a sustainable contract because we have NO interest in being 10 year FO's and we want nothing better than to get out of this god forsaken regional industry. Most captains around this place were able to upgrade between 2 - 4 years, now its 7+, if you cant understand why we want growth and expansion, then you have gotten too comfortable being a lifer captain.
Ironically, the XJT lifer captains need the FOs' help in order to defeat the TA that they haven't even seen, so they're roofie'ing their FOs water bottles with kool-aid powder to dupe them into scuttling the TA that no one has even seen yet.
07-02-2012, 03:15 PM
#335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: UniCal 737 FO
Posts: 413
Alright, EDITlet's look at a couple case studies in which the unions ended up shooting themselves in the foot with this mentality.
The Boeing machinists union has for decades been a very hostile/greedy group that chanted that very line about how the company should keep itself profitable but they also deserve huge wage hikes. The two are mutually exclusive, and the union discovered that the hard way when their jobs were sent to non-union workers in South Carolina. Oops. Maybe they should have played ball so they could keep their jobs.
The auto industry was brought down mainly by greedy unions. We don't need to go into detail because everyone knows how well compensated auto machinists were when they helped cause GM and Chrysler to go tango uniform.
Yes, it's the pilots jobs to look out for themselves, but not to the extent that it brings the company down. Obviously the company would never sign a TA that would put it out of business. But say--hypothetically--some XJTALPA-flavored kool-aid drinkers are able to organize pilots to defeat a reasonable, competitive TA (hypothetically, since we don't know whether the TA will be reasonable or competitive yet, because we haven't read it, and therefore we can't legitimately say whether we'll vote yes or no), the company will either have to waste a lot of time negotiating a new TA that raises our costs significantly and prices us--and our jobs--out of the market, or continue with the status quo which may end with the same result for one or both pre-merger sides.
Yes, airline pilots deserve to be paid more than they are, and yes we deserve mainline-style work rules at the regionals. But we are living in reality, not a Democrat/left-wing dreamland where we get everything we deserve. There are snakes in the grass in the form of shady ultra low cost regionals (e.g., BlowJetz) that will take our flying in an instant if we price ourselves out of the market. And then you won't have your "snapback" because you don't even have a job.
And believe me, knowing Jerry and the St George gang, things will surely *not* work out in PMXJT's and reacharound's favor if they scuttle the TA. That's just the reality of the situation.
The Boeing machinists union has for decades been a very hostile/greedy group that chanted that very line about how the company should keep itself profitable but they also deserve huge wage hikes. The two are mutually exclusive, and the union discovered that the hard way when their jobs were sent to non-union workers in South Carolina. Oops. Maybe they should have played ball so they could keep their jobs.
The auto industry was brought down mainly by greedy unions. We don't need to go into detail because everyone knows how well compensated auto machinists were when they helped cause GM and Chrysler to go tango uniform.
Yes, it's the pilots jobs to look out for themselves, but not to the extent that it brings the company down. Obviously the company would never sign a TA that would put it out of business. But say--hypothetically--some XJTALPA-flavored kool-aid drinkers are able to organize pilots to defeat a reasonable, competitive TA (hypothetically, since we don't know whether the TA will be reasonable or competitive yet, because we haven't read it, and therefore we can't legitimately say whether we'll vote yes or no), the company will either have to waste a lot of time negotiating a new TA that raises our costs significantly and prices us--and our jobs--out of the market, or continue with the status quo which may end with the same result for one or both pre-merger sides.
Yes, airline pilots deserve to be paid more than they are, and yes we deserve mainline-style work rules at the regionals. But we are living in reality, not a Democrat/left-wing dreamland where we get everything we deserve. There are snakes in the grass in the form of shady ultra low cost regionals (e.g., BlowJetz) that will take our flying in an instant if we price ourselves out of the market. And then you won't have your "snapback" because you don't even have a job.
And believe me, knowing Jerry and the St George gang, things will surely *not* work out in PMXJT's and reacharound's favor if they scuttle the TA. That's just the reality of the situation.
Last edited by acl65pilot; 07-02-2012 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Tos
07-02-2012, 04:24 PM
#336
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: ERJ145 Captain
Posts: 473
Alright,EDITED via ACL, let's look at a couple case studies in which the unions ended up shooting themselves in the foot with this mentality.
The Boeing machinists union has for decades been a very hostile/greedy group that chanted that very line about how the company should keep itself profitable but they also deserve huge wage hikes. The two are mutually exclusive, and the union discovered that the hard way when their jobs were sent to non-union workers in South Carolina. Oops. Maybe they should have played ball so they could keep their jobs.
The auto industry was brought down mainly by greedy unions. We don't need to go into detail because everyone knows how well compensated auto machinists were when they helped cause GM and Chrysler to go tango uniform.
Yes, it's the pilots jobs to look out for themselves, but not to the extent that it brings the company down. Obviously the company would never sign a TA that would put it out of business. But say--hypothetically--some XJTALPA-flavored kool-aid drinkers are able to organize pilots to defeat a reasonable, competitive TA (hypothetically, since we don't know whether the TA will be reasonable or competitive yet, because we haven't read it, and therefore we can't legitimately say whether we'll vote yes or no), the company will either have to waste a lot of time negotiating a new TA that raises our costs significantly and prices us--and our jobs--out of the market, or continue with the status quo which may end with the same result for one or both pre-merger sides.
Yes, airline pilots deserve to be paid more than they are, and yes we deserve mainline-style work rules at the regionals. But we are living in reality, not a Democrat/left-wing dreamland where we get everything we deserve. There are snakes in the grass in the form of shady ultra low cost regionals (e.g., BlowJetz) that will take our flying in an instant if we price ourselves out of the market. And then you won't have your "snapback" because you don't even have a job.
And believe me, knowing Jerry and the St George gang, things will surely *not* work out in PMXJT's and reacharound's favor if they scuttle the TA. That's just the reality of the situation.
The Boeing machinists union has for decades been a very hostile/greedy group that chanted that very line about how the company should keep itself profitable but they also deserve huge wage hikes. The two are mutually exclusive, and the union discovered that the hard way when their jobs were sent to non-union workers in South Carolina. Oops. Maybe they should have played ball so they could keep their jobs.
The auto industry was brought down mainly by greedy unions. We don't need to go into detail because everyone knows how well compensated auto machinists were when they helped cause GM and Chrysler to go tango uniform.
Yes, it's the pilots jobs to look out for themselves, but not to the extent that it brings the company down. Obviously the company would never sign a TA that would put it out of business. But say--hypothetically--some XJTALPA-flavored kool-aid drinkers are able to organize pilots to defeat a reasonable, competitive TA (hypothetically, since we don't know whether the TA will be reasonable or competitive yet, because we haven't read it, and therefore we can't legitimately say whether we'll vote yes or no), the company will either have to waste a lot of time negotiating a new TA that raises our costs significantly and prices us--and our jobs--out of the market, or continue with the status quo which may end with the same result for one or both pre-merger sides.
Yes, airline pilots deserve to be paid more than they are, and yes we deserve mainline-style work rules at the regionals. But we are living in reality, not a Democrat/left-wing dreamland where we get everything we deserve. There are snakes in the grass in the form of shady ultra low cost regionals (e.g., BlowJetz) that will take our flying in an instant if we price ourselves out of the market. And then you won't have your "snapback" because you don't even have a job.
And believe me, knowing Jerry and the St George gang, things will surely *not* work out in PMXJT's and reacharound's favor if they scuttle the TA. That's just the reality of the situation.
By the way, based on your believe system, you're clearly on the wrong side of the fence (assuming you're a line pilot at all). Good thing you're not in the negotiating Commitee. Per your own words "the company will not sign a contract that will bankrupt them", that's their job. Ours is to maximize the leverage we have and get as much as possible.
Here's a few realities for you folks that you're refusing to see:
1. If there are NO gains for the ERJ side, we'll just vote it down. Not open to discussion, as most of you already know the fear tactics won't work a second time, and believe it or not the crj side has more lifers as demonstrated by seniority.
2. There will NOT be a flush bid and there will be fences, regardless of the SLI.
3. There's no rush for ERJ side to vote anything in, and history has demonstrated (with the exception of Delta) that the first and second TA's are usually rejected.
4. If Jerry decides to pull aircraft out of the ERJ side because he wants to go home and take his ball, well, he can't! That's the best part, he signed a transitional agreement (public document) with our MEC. Planes go, so do the crews on a 10-1 ratio. You guys have that on the crj side?
5. The UAL CPA is a 1-1 ratio on replacements. I love how people ignore this one too!
6. asa ceased to exist, the surviving entity is called ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. it's a combination of the two carriers purchased by SKYWEST Inc. Talk about the crj union selling kool aid on that one.
So once again, who is brave enough to answer a civilize question?
WHAT IS THE INCENTIVE FOR THE ERJ CREWS TO CLOSE THIS DEAL QUICKLY?
Anyone.....
Last edited by acl65pilot; 07-02-2012 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Tos
07-02-2012, 04:50 PM
#337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 330
Ok show me the numbers. Show me where an increase in wages and QOL is going to bankrupt the company. The way you talk you must know more than all of us, show me the finances; specifically where any capital gains would hurt the company's bottom line.
By the way, based on your believe system, you're clearly on the wrong side of the fence (assuming you're a line pilot at all). Good thing you're not in the negotiating Commitee. Per your own words "the company will not sign a contract that will bankrupt them", that's their job. Ours is to maximize the leverage we have and get as much as possible.
Here's a few realities for you folks that you're refusing to see:
1. If there are NO gains for the ERJ side, we'll just vote it down. Not open to discussion, as most of you already know the fear tactics won't work a second time, and believe it or not the crj side has more lifers as demonstrated by seniority.
2. There will NOT be a flush bid and there will be fences, regardless of the SLI.
3. There's no rush for ERJ side to vote anything in, and history has demonstrated (with the exception of Delta) that the first and second TA's are usually rejected.
4. If Jerry decides to pull aircraft out of the ERJ side because he wants to go home and take his ball, well, he can't! That's the best part, he signed a transitional agreement (public document) with our MEC. Planes go, so do the crews on a 10-1 ratio. You guys have that on the crj side?
5. The UAL CPA is a 1-1 ratio on replacements. I love how people ignore this one too!
6. asa ceased to exist, the surviving entity is called ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. it's a combination of the two carriers purchased by SKYWEST Inc. Talk about the crj union selling kool aid on that one.
So once again, who is brave enough to answer a civilize question?
WHAT IS THE INCENTIVE FOR THE ERJ CREWS TO CLOSE THIS DEAL QUICKLY?
Anyone.....
By the way, based on your believe system, you're clearly on the wrong side of the fence (assuming you're a line pilot at all). Good thing you're not in the negotiating Commitee. Per your own words "the company will not sign a contract that will bankrupt them", that's their job. Ours is to maximize the leverage we have and get as much as possible.
Here's a few realities for you folks that you're refusing to see:
1. If there are NO gains for the ERJ side, we'll just vote it down. Not open to discussion, as most of you already know the fear tactics won't work a second time, and believe it or not the crj side has more lifers as demonstrated by seniority.
2. There will NOT be a flush bid and there will be fences, regardless of the SLI.
3. There's no rush for ERJ side to vote anything in, and history has demonstrated (with the exception of Delta) that the first and second TA's are usually rejected.
4. If Jerry decides to pull aircraft out of the ERJ side because he wants to go home and take his ball, well, he can't! That's the best part, he signed a transitional agreement (public document) with our MEC. Planes go, so do the crews on a 10-1 ratio. You guys have that on the crj side?
5. The UAL CPA is a 1-1 ratio on replacements. I love how people ignore this one too!
6. asa ceased to exist, the surviving entity is called ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. it's a combination of the two carriers purchased by SKYWEST Inc. Talk about the crj union selling kool aid on that one.
So once again, who is brave enough to answer a civilize question?
WHAT IS THE INCENTIVE FOR THE ERJ CREWS TO CLOSE THIS DEAL QUICKLY?
Anyone.....
Do you not recall the emails about how they are basically constantly working to renew groups of aircraft with United on a regular basis?
I do not know what the exact times and dates are but aircraft are constantly under the threat of not being renewed. Last summer I recall an email about how they were able to renew something like 32 erj's or something. Basically there is an expiration. So you're not bullet proof to airplane losses.
Also, if say 50 of your erj birds do not get renewed that does not mean 50 new 700's come firing onto the line.
I don't recall the specs but I believe that 1:1 deal was IF United allows bigger birds for you then it can become a 1:1 swap.
Besides that I would look at contract expiration's and see how many birds are coming due for renewal and then question if you wanna be dragging your feet.
07-02-2012, 04:50 PM
#338
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: UniCal 737 FO
Posts: 413
the funny thing is that every day, your reminded of who you really are; "Acey" (which you yourself has to say hundreds of times a day at work) and the certificate the airline operates under is ASA. Not ExpressJet's.
07-02-2012, 05:03 PM
#339
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,023
the FO's are worried about a sustainable contract because we have NO interest in being 10 year FO's and we want nothing better than to get out of this god forsaken regional industry. Most captains around this place were able to upgrade between 2 - 4 years, now its 7+, if you cant understand why we want growth and expansion, then you have gotten too comfortable being a lifer captain.
Look at the CASM for the past few years. In 2008 it was 15.9 cents and in 2009 it was 11.8 cents -- we had the exact same pilot contract, yet our costs went down by 25% -- even if we worked for free, it would not go down that much (on pg 48 you'll see that total wages and benefits amount to 3 cents per seat mile); obviously pilot costs do not make or break an airline. You'll also notice that mgmt. clearly tells investors that they are very interested in getting this JCBA done quickly. If we allow that leverage to be flushed away in a mediocre or concessionary TA we have no one to blame but ourselves.
07-02-2012, 05:07 PM
#340
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Position: Not sure anymore
Posts: 206
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