Originally Posted by AcesHigh

You're right, but being jaded and staying jaded isn't going to change anything. So why be ****ed off about it and try and make a change for the better?



At least thats how I see things in life.



But hey if you're with the company, I wish you nothing but blessings and better opportunities for your future.



So who's living in ORD?

Originally Posted by TrinityDawn

I think the unfortunate reality is that as line pilots, there is very little we can do as employees to "make it better." That ball is entirely in management's court. We were a profitable company with excellent performance numbers before bankruptcy, and now that our numbers have climbed back into similar ranges again, management thinks there is no f^€Łing problem here. They actually told the union they think morale is fine because "complaint letters from employees have dropped." The real story is that everyone is so demoralized they have given up, because it's clear management doesn't care about our opinions or QOL or our contract. They think vocal individuals like myself are in the minority, when in reality most of the people I fly with are similarly exhausted and ready to bail when a better opportunity presents itself. I've given 10 years of my life to trying to make this company successful, time I can't get back, only to watch management **** it away and treat us like peons. You may be able to forgive that kind of behavior, but I will never forget it.

Originally Posted by E175 Driver

But how many do wee need to hire to let all these people flow?

For 30/25 flows a month we need to be hiring like gangbusters.

Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox

At risk of this thread taking long a detour through Grouchland I'll reply with the thought that, yes, you can stay jaded. I think upgrading sort of cements that attitude. You quickly find out that management prefers performance numbers over customer care, that front line employees are placed in a position of trying to shift blame in event of delays in order to avoid scrutiny (and of course they blame the crew and you're going to have a voicemail to call your CP and explain it), and we now have to watch our backs for attendance issues that could get you fired days before you flow to AA. When you become one of the people that has to answer for all the little things you end up looking over your shoulder a lot, that keeps you jaded. JMO.

Originally Posted by Shiner

Ignoring the trolliness of your account, you pose a valid question that is often asked.

The response I always give is that getting new hires isn't the pilots problem. We signed a contract that has a certain number of pilots flowing to AA each month. How management deals with staffing the airline under the terms of the agreement is up to them.

So far they have increased FO pay (via a retention bonus and a new hire bonus). They are still selling the flow hard in recruiting. However, it would appear base and aircraft type are what's driving the new hire numbers. When that stops working, they'll have to come up with something else. But it will be managements problem to deal with, not the pilots.


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Originally Posted by go skers

Based on the seniority list from mid July

2001-84
No hiring 9/3/01-1/3/04
2004-104
2005-58
2006-106
2007-222
2008-124
No hiring 5/12/08-3/15/10
2010-98
2011-271
2013/current-352

The "824" group that gets to carry their vacation and sick accrual rates and get 50% metered to 30/month comes to an end sometime early summer 2017 and the switches to the protected pilot group which flows at 50% metered to 25/month. That agreement essentially covers pilots hired through 2011. From 2013 onward it comes out to around 15/month, the agreements are posted on the APC profile page if you really want to get into the deep stuff.

If AA hires consistently it'll take:
9 months to cover the 824 agreement (30/mo)
36 months to cover PP agreement (25/mo)
28 months 2013-present (15-10/mo variable based on size)

6 years to flow is in the general ballpark. Attrition at Envoy and random months of no hiring at AA could move those numbers in either direction. Typically the closer a pilot is to flowing the less likely they are to go elsewhere. CA attrition outside of flow is usually single digits per month. CA upgrade seems to be the cutoff where attrition drops.

Zombie apocalypses, unforeseen economic collapses and theories about management stopping the flow altogether could change it even more but good luck predicting those things.

Originally Posted by CLT Guy

PSA is flowing early 2007. The last 2006's are gone or leaving soon.

Originally Posted by egl2fdx

This is a big gap between Envoy and PSA. Pilots at ENY I've heard have now been waiting for 16 years to flow, and PSA is only down to less than 10? Am I getting this right?

I see the gap from 08'-10' and hopefully that will fix things, but the way it looks, PSA will trumph Envoy's flow by DOH quicker.