New Envoy Information
07-03-2016, 08:59 AM
#3691
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,054
You just walk right into this with ease.
Sure.....
FACTS:
- Pilots at Envoy flowing to AA right now have been here for 16+ years. When they started, they were told they would flow in less than 3 years. Sound familiar to Fatboy Wilsons claim of 2.5/6???
- The claim of 300 flows this year hasn't happened and will not happen. 127 to date and we are told less than the less than number can now be expected (sub 200). Not exactly ripping through flows are we? Hmmmmmm(see first bullet fact for reflection)
- New hires are getting the 175 and because it has been taken away from any current FO, except upgrade, it will, even if temporarily, create its own little world of fast quality of life movement. All the while, senior FOs are stuck on the 145, with little to no movement. While this may sound great to a potential new hire, it should be telling of how much management here cares about fairness and taking care of the FOs that have stayed the course even though many of their friends successfully moved to the PSAs and Mesas of the world and upgraded. What a great reward for 6-8 years of service. To put it plainly - this makes it obvious that once your nuts are in the envoy grinder, it will happen to you too.
- Artificial first year pay opens up to dismal second year pay. What industry do you get an almost 50% pay cut the second year? Again, all to get you "in the door". Then the pain begins.
This isn't a true fact, but a fairly wise summation based on my decades of experience: The only people on here that are cheerleading the company are doing it because they are management , Patsy's of, or interested in their own well being only. If I were interested in my own well being I should be on the other side, but I actually have a conscience and care for others.
Sure.....
FACTS:
- Pilots at Envoy flowing to AA right now have been here for 16+ years. When they started, they were told they would flow in less than 3 years. Sound familiar to Fatboy Wilsons claim of 2.5/6???
- The claim of 300 flows this year hasn't happened and will not happen. 127 to date and we are told less than the less than number can now be expected (sub 200). Not exactly ripping through flows are we? Hmmmmmm(see first bullet fact for reflection)
- New hires are getting the 175 and because it has been taken away from any current FO, except upgrade, it will, even if temporarily, create its own little world of fast quality of life movement. All the while, senior FOs are stuck on the 145, with little to no movement. While this may sound great to a potential new hire, it should be telling of how much management here cares about fairness and taking care of the FOs that have stayed the course even though many of their friends successfully moved to the PSAs and Mesas of the world and upgraded. What a great reward for 6-8 years of service. To put it plainly - this makes it obvious that once your nuts are in the envoy grinder, it will happen to you too.
- Artificial first year pay opens up to dismal second year pay. What industry do you get an almost 50% pay cut the second year? Again, all to get you "in the door". Then the pain begins.
This isn't a true fact, but a fairly wise summation based on my decades of experience: The only people on here that are cheerleading the company are doing it because they are management , Patsy's of, or interested in their own well being only. If I were interested in my own well being I should be on the other side, but I actually have a conscience and care for others.
07-03-2016, 09:59 AM
#3692
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 194
In reading this paragraph, in my opinion from what I've heard on forums and talking to Envoy pilots directly, your assessment of present Envoy seems to be the distinct minority. AFAIC, from my assessment, the ills you describe are not just "things management needs to do", but something far more systemic in their relationship with their pilots which to me appears quite dysfunctional. From past experience there (which sounds leaps and bounds better then the present), pilots lived up to 95% of their bargain with management and the reverse was less than 50%. I think management needs to FAR more then just to "wake up".
Good luck to you too. I think you'll need it.
Good luck to you too. I think you'll need it.
They know most pilots will leave anyway for a legacy or LCC, but not make a lateral move to another regional no matter how bad things get and most will blindly follow that delicious carrot -the flow, so throwing more money at present pilots is a waste, at least for now. In fact, most will focus so intently on the flow, they'd walk off a cliff in the process (and reading posts here and on EL, appear to be doing just that). Look at all this bonus money. It's for attracting new-hires (their conundrum) and NOT for demonstrating worth to those already on property (the pilots conundrum),
Even the bonus money for present pilots is an investment for them to get new-hires to Envoy for the most part. Once a pilot is at Envoy and rakes in all that $$$, they get slapped with a pay cut starting year 2. The shiny new baby airbuses are all going to new-hires (along with their better schedules), while more senior Envoy pilots suck eggs. I read Pool's letter and it sounds to me like it was penned by management and he just signed it. The extra $$$ is a nice thing, sure, as who doesn't want extra money, but make no mistake, from my POV, nothing has changed there and nothing will change their as the components needed for that just don't appear to be on the radar screen.
Even the bonus money for present pilots is an investment for them to get new-hires to Envoy for the most part. Once a pilot is at Envoy and rakes in all that $$$, they get slapped with a pay cut starting year 2. The shiny new baby airbuses are all going to new-hires (along with their better schedules), while more senior Envoy pilots suck eggs. I read Pool's letter and it sounds to me like it was penned by management and he just signed it. The extra $$$ is a nice thing, sure, as who doesn't want extra money, but make no mistake, from my POV, nothing has changed there and nothing will change their as the components needed for that just don't appear to be on the radar screen.
Sorry, but I don't see any moves from anyone other then what they already are willing to do. I see that claim of sudden mass exodus as chest-thumping. Sure, there will be a small percentage of outliers, but the pilots already proved via Cujo's poll, they plan to ride it out at Envoy for the blessed flow unless another legacy gets them first or the case of some, an LCC. As for the flow to AA, IMO, most if not all the LCC's, will have better contracts then AA within a few years and AA will be the least financially lucrative airline among the other legacies and LCC's like Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit, etc. all who will have higher narrowbody rates and better work rules and at least equal 401(k) pensions. We're going to be the "cheap seats" in 2020, IMO, so personally, I don't think the flow is as golden a ticket as most other places considering where we are and where we're going.
My points about Envoy pilots resistance to vacating involve lateral moves to other regionals. As it stands now, most PP pilots, particularly current F/O's will go now to any decent LCC's that makes an employment offer. It's been my contention AAG will make a consolidation move involving Envoy by later next year when the PP agreement becomes the new flow mechanism, but Envoy (not AAG) is just concentrating on the now. LCC's (or legacies for that matter) are not gutting Envoy yet and for now, AAG/Envoy will only do what they think will keep the engine from seizing and nothing more, hence these schemes that do virtually nothing for present Envoy pilots and are all geared to just kicking the can for awhile, which BTW Mr. Pool seems all in to help.
But as Envoy contracts, it will be the E-145 fleet that contracts first and fastest. From my understanding it also has the crummy early/late schedules that make commuting a nightmare, even with free rooms. Most importantly though, I think it will be the fleet most at risk for being fragmented off to a non wholly-owned carrier (it's pilots do have recall rights as slots would open in any non divested segment of the present Envoy) and that alone would lead me to the E-175 if I were a new-hire.
All posted in the last three days, all pulled directly from EL by you
Your entire existence on this thread is to regurgitate EL
07-03-2016, 10:01 AM
#3693
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 194
In fact the only thing you do better than quoting EL is being massively wrong on the flow predictions for Envoy pilots. Off by over a thousand slots according to this post
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/1176866-post95.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/1176866-post95.html
07-03-2016, 10:12 AM
#3694
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 172
You just walk right into this with ease.
Sure.....
FACTS:
- Pilots at Envoy flowing to AA right now have been here for 16+ years. When they started, they were told they would flow in less than 3 years. Sound familiar to Fatboy Wilsons claim of 2.5/6???
- The claim of 300 flows this year hasn't happened and will not happen. 127 to date and we are told less than the less than number can now be expected (sub 200). Not exactly ripping through flows are we? Hmmmmmm(see first bullet fact for reflection)
- New hires are getting the 175 and because it has been taken away from any current FO, except upgrade, it will, even if temporarily, create its own little world of fast quality of life movement. All the while, senior FOs are stuck on the 145, with little to no movement. While this may sound great to a potential new hire, it should be telling of how much management here cares about fairness and taking care of the FOs that have stayed the course even though many of their friends successfully moved to the PSAs and Mesas of the world and upgraded. What a great reward for 6-8 years of service. To put it plainly - this makes it obvious that once your nuts are in the envoy grinder, it will happen to you too.
- Artificial first year pay opens up to dismal second year pay. What industry do you get an almost 50% pay cut the second year? Again, all to get you "in the door". Then the pain begins.
This isn't a true fact, but a fairly wise summation based on my decades of experience: The only people on here that are cheerleading the company are doing it because they are management , Patsy's of, or interested in their own well being only. If I were interested in my own well being I should be on the other side, but I actually have a conscience and care for others.
Sure.....
FACTS:
- Pilots at Envoy flowing to AA right now have been here for 16+ years. When they started, they were told they would flow in less than 3 years. Sound familiar to Fatboy Wilsons claim of 2.5/6???
- The claim of 300 flows this year hasn't happened and will not happen. 127 to date and we are told less than the less than number can now be expected (sub 200). Not exactly ripping through flows are we? Hmmmmmm(see first bullet fact for reflection)
- New hires are getting the 175 and because it has been taken away from any current FO, except upgrade, it will, even if temporarily, create its own little world of fast quality of life movement. All the while, senior FOs are stuck on the 145, with little to no movement. While this may sound great to a potential new hire, it should be telling of how much management here cares about fairness and taking care of the FOs that have stayed the course even though many of their friends successfully moved to the PSAs and Mesas of the world and upgraded. What a great reward for 6-8 years of service. To put it plainly - this makes it obvious that once your nuts are in the envoy grinder, it will happen to you too.
- Artificial first year pay opens up to dismal second year pay. What industry do you get an almost 50% pay cut the second year? Again, all to get you "in the door". Then the pain begins.
This isn't a true fact, but a fairly wise summation based on my decades of experience: The only people on here that are cheerleading the company are doing it because they are management , Patsy's of, or interested in their own well being only. If I were interested in my own well being I should be on the other side, but I actually have a conscience and care for others.
^^^^^^^
This is what your recruiter won't tell you.
07-03-2016, 10:21 AM
#3695
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I stand by my claim
Quoted off EL
Quoted off EL
Quoted off EL
Quoted random internet poll on EL
Quoting directly from EL
Your understanding is reading EL
By heard you mean read off EL
All posted in the last three days, all pulled directly from EL by you
Your entire existence on this thread is to regurgitate EL
Quoted off EL
Quoted off EL
Quoted off EL
Quoted random internet poll on EL
Quoting directly from EL
Your understanding is reading EL
By heard you mean read off EL
All posted in the last three days, all pulled directly from EL by you
Your entire existence on this thread is to regurgitate EL
IF all I'm doing is regurgitating EL and EL is comprised of virtually all Envoy pilots, again, what goes that say about Envoy ?
As for "standing by you claims", you can parrot that until the swallows fly back to Capistrano, but it doesn't change the fact it is all bankrupt of substance and shameless film-flammery.
Perhaps YOU can tell us WHICH aircraft have been parked just maintain the flunk-thru to AA, Mr. Stand by ?
Last edited by eaglefly; 07-03-2016 at 10:31 AM.
07-03-2016, 10:26 AM
#3696
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
In fact the only thing you do better than quoting EL is being massively wrong on the flow predictions for Envoy pilots. Off by over a thousand slots according to this post
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/1176866-post95.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/1176866-post95.html
07-03-2016, 10:45 AM
#3697
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 194
All interesting points, but her's another if what you say is valid;
IF all I'm doing is regurgitating EL and EL is comprised of virtually all Envoy pilots, again, what goes that say about Envoy ?
As for "standing by you claims", you can parrot that until the swallows fly back to Capistrano, but it doesn't change the fact it is all bankrupt of substance and shameless film-flammery.
Perhaps YOU can tell us WHICH aircraft have been parked just maintain the flunk-thru to AA, Mr. Stand by ?
IF all I'm doing is regurgitating EL and EL is comprised of virtually all Envoy pilots, again, what goes that say about Envoy ?
As for "standing by you claims", you can parrot that until the swallows fly back to Capistrano, but it doesn't change the fact it is all bankrupt of substance and shameless film-flammery.
Perhaps YOU can tell us WHICH aircraft have been parked just maintain the flunk-thru to AA, Mr. Stand by ?
EL has active posting base of less than 5% of active Envoy pilots. It also contains numerous pilots who have exercised their flow rights or have moved on and still remain active posting members. That group typically fades away over time.
Most of the planes being parked in the near future are E140s with "power by hour" lease agreements that can be readily brought back up until reaching certain cycle limits and E145s that will backfill PDT's DHC8-300s that will be reaching cycle limits and being put to pasture next year. What happens with the TSA and Xjet birds is up for debate. I don't think any of those parking or returning aircraft have anything to do with honoring the flow thru.
The numbered pilots flowed in seniority order and were not withheld. The 824 agreement pilots are currently flowing in excess of 50% and will likely maintain that threshold until the conclusion of the agreement. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the parking aircraft to maintain flow
07-03-2016, 10:56 AM
#3698
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
EL has active posting base of less than 5% of active Envoy pilots. It also contains numerous pilots who have exercised their flow rights or have moved on and still remain active posting members. That group typically fades away over time.
Most of the planes being parked in the near future are E140s with "power by hour" lease agreements that can be readily brought back up until reaching certain cycle limits and E145s that will backfill PDT's DHC8-300s that will be reaching cycle limits and being put to pasture next year. What happens with the TSA and Xjet birds is up for debate. I don't think any of those parking or returning aircraft have anything to do with honoring the flow thru.
The numbered pilots flowed in seniority order and were not withheld. The 824 agreement pilots are currently flowing in excess of 50% and will likely maintain that threshold until the conclusion of the agreement. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the parking aircraft to maintain flow
Most of the planes being parked in the near future are E140s with "power by hour" lease agreements that can be readily brought back up until reaching certain cycle limits and E145s that will backfill PDT's DHC8-300s that will be reaching cycle limits and being put to pasture next year. What happens with the TSA and Xjet birds is up for debate. I don't think any of those parking or returning aircraft have anything to do with honoring the flow thru.
The numbered pilots flowed in seniority order and were not withheld. The 824 agreement pilots are currently flowing in excess of 50% and will likely maintain that threshold until the conclusion of the agreement. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the parking aircraft to maintain flow
Seems a lot of people are standing by things that don't exist in the first place and not surprisingly, falling over when leaning on the non-existent. It's a beautiful holiday weekend and I figured the sales tent here would be closed in honor of that.
I was wrong.
07-03-2016, 11:10 AM
#3699
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 194
My opinions here about Envoy come from more then just EL. I do still know pilots there, ones who've recently left and the sentiment from my experience is pretty consistent. I'm sorry this upsets you. The flow has failed its previous projections of the beginning of the year (as I and others predicted) and deflecting to past information isn't as relevant as to what is happening NOW. Likewise, poor Charlie Bucket's 2.5 year upgrade is STILL being sold and he's nowhere close to that. One of your compadres arrived this morning here to foam up the place with more whipping cream including the claim Envoy has and WILL park planes to honor the flow and yes, he says he stands by that too.
Seems a lot of people are standing by things that don't exist in the first place and not surprisingly, falling over when leaning on the non-existent. It's a beautiful holiday weekend and I figured the sales tent here would be closed in honor of that.
I was wrong.
Seems a lot of people are standing by things that don't exist in the first place and not surprisingly, falling over when leaning on the non-existent. It's a beautiful holiday weekend and I figured the sales tent here would be closed in honor of that.
I was wrong.
07-03-2016, 11:22 AM
#3700
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
None this will change where Envoy is or where it appears to be heading. Perhaps you should concern yourself more with that then deflecting that situation with erroneous sharp-shooting of others posts and then misapplying your anger ?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
