New Envoy Information
06-25-2016, 02:05 PM
#3471
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: EMB145 CA
Posts: 484
This is certainly NOT anything like other airlines. Schedules at this airline were never built like this before. This is recent and incredibly crumby for commuters and for non-commuters. There is zero cadence and we should not have to rely on trip trade to fix the problems of crew scheduling. Because of the pure garbage design of the sequences, trip trade will likely not yield any better results.
06-25-2016, 10:57 PM
#3472
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 31
For all that are wondering whether Envoy is a good fit for you here is something to look at.
Is this airline hiring more bodies monthly than it is losing?
Quality of life at any airline means people in behind you. Moving up on the seniority list does little to help you in a holding any decent schedule or bidding for any decent vacation weeks. When you are always at the bottom ten percent you will always get the garbage no one wants.
Another thing to look at is when and if you actually hold a line. Normaly holding a line at any airline is a QOL bump. But if the airline keeps getting the scraps of all the garbage flying all the other airlines don't want you end up with lines that are even worse than being on reserve. So you have to take account not how long you can hold a line, more so, you have to take into account how long you can hold a line worthy of bidding off reserve. Most junior line holders don't come into play at Envoy. If you look at the reserve list you will see many senior folks bidding reserve because the lines are even worse than reserve itself.
Another issue is your own personal tolerance to pain. If you have a low tolerance for being lied to, or a low tolerance of having a company violate any contractual gains you or your Union may have gained over the years, then Envoy may not be the place for you.
Another issue to look at is your own level of self respect. If you go to Envoy expecting to be treated well, this may be a problem.
No one can make the choice for you on where a good home would be. Only you and your family can make that choice.
If you do choose to go to an airline like Envoy, do it going in with the fact that most likely you will have few come in behind you. Their hiring numbers are a fact, and are well short of keeping up with attrition.
The lines to be had whether you commute or not, based off their own unions emails, have clearly stated they see no hope for improvements. Not only that, I was told that the company has now been keeping union members from getting leave to help build the lines. So know that going in, even though you may hold a line, you will be wishing you were on reserve for years.
It would be unwise to go to any airline with the hopes of good things to come. Go back and look at the Envoy threads. For years now good things have always been around the corner, yet nothing ever comes from the rumors.
Even ALPA has run the numbers on the upgrade/flow projections. Seems to me they don't beleive the numbers will now work out as planned. How I would interpret just that fact alone, is I was being lied to, even before I step through the door. Knowing they have to lie to get me into the door says it all to me. If your company sucks that bad, where you have to lie to me just to get me there I may be better off at Home Depot.
If I were a new hire truly looking at the many different airlines available I would go to a company that pays me the most bang for my buck. That means time for dollars. Who is gonna pay me the most to put up with their BS. Who is gonna get me home more? Who is gonna keep me commuting less, if I have to commute. All those things add up to time for dollars.
You do that and my guess is Envoy would be close to the bottom of your list. The only way I would go to an Envoy would be a solid seniority number at AA. Until they get that your better off making more money somewhere else. And truthfully it seems to me, based off their hiring numbers you risk little by going elswhere. Make as much money as you can at a better paying airline. Enjoy a better QOL and wait to see if AAG actually does a true 100 percent flow through, with AA numbers from day one. Once they do that you can bounce with the extra money you made, and have lost a few spots in seniority due to their inability to hire the required amount of pilots.
If they don't do that chances are they are way too behind to catch up at this point and you will be much happier you went somwhere else, with the extra money in your pocket and your family seeing you more.
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
Is this airline hiring more bodies monthly than it is losing?
Quality of life at any airline means people in behind you. Moving up on the seniority list does little to help you in a holding any decent schedule or bidding for any decent vacation weeks. When you are always at the bottom ten percent you will always get the garbage no one wants.
Another thing to look at is when and if you actually hold a line. Normaly holding a line at any airline is a QOL bump. But if the airline keeps getting the scraps of all the garbage flying all the other airlines don't want you end up with lines that are even worse than being on reserve. So you have to take account not how long you can hold a line, more so, you have to take into account how long you can hold a line worthy of bidding off reserve. Most junior line holders don't come into play at Envoy. If you look at the reserve list you will see many senior folks bidding reserve because the lines are even worse than reserve itself.
Another issue is your own personal tolerance to pain. If you have a low tolerance for being lied to, or a low tolerance of having a company violate any contractual gains you or your Union may have gained over the years, then Envoy may not be the place for you.
Another issue to look at is your own level of self respect. If you go to Envoy expecting to be treated well, this may be a problem.
No one can make the choice for you on where a good home would be. Only you and your family can make that choice.
If you do choose to go to an airline like Envoy, do it going in with the fact that most likely you will have few come in behind you. Their hiring numbers are a fact, and are well short of keeping up with attrition.
The lines to be had whether you commute or not, based off their own unions emails, have clearly stated they see no hope for improvements. Not only that, I was told that the company has now been keeping union members from getting leave to help build the lines. So know that going in, even though you may hold a line, you will be wishing you were on reserve for years.
It would be unwise to go to any airline with the hopes of good things to come. Go back and look at the Envoy threads. For years now good things have always been around the corner, yet nothing ever comes from the rumors.
Even ALPA has run the numbers on the upgrade/flow projections. Seems to me they don't beleive the numbers will now work out as planned. How I would interpret just that fact alone, is I was being lied to, even before I step through the door. Knowing they have to lie to get me into the door says it all to me. If your company sucks that bad, where you have to lie to me just to get me there I may be better off at Home Depot.
If I were a new hire truly looking at the many different airlines available I would go to a company that pays me the most bang for my buck. That means time for dollars. Who is gonna pay me the most to put up with their BS. Who is gonna get me home more? Who is gonna keep me commuting less, if I have to commute. All those things add up to time for dollars.
You do that and my guess is Envoy would be close to the bottom of your list. The only way I would go to an Envoy would be a solid seniority number at AA. Until they get that your better off making more money somewhere else. And truthfully it seems to me, based off their hiring numbers you risk little by going elswhere. Make as much money as you can at a better paying airline. Enjoy a better QOL and wait to see if AAG actually does a true 100 percent flow through, with AA numbers from day one. Once they do that you can bounce with the extra money you made, and have lost a few spots in seniority due to their inability to hire the required amount of pilots.
If they don't do that chances are they are way too behind to catch up at this point and you will be much happier you went somwhere else, with the extra money in your pocket and your family seeing you more.
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
06-26-2016, 03:46 AM
#3473
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,420
This is certainly NOT anything like other airlines. Schedules at this airline were never built like this before. This is recent and incredibly crumby for commuters and for non-commuters. There is zero cadence and we should not have to rely on trip trade to fix the problems of crew scheduling. Because of the pure garbage design of the sequences, trip trade will likely not yield any better results.
It's AAGs fault, PSA and PDT are having the same difficulties.
06-26-2016, 04:49 AM
#3474
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
I doubt that very much that the schedules would improve around aug/sept. The question is why would they improve the lines, there is no benefit for aag. They love screwing with you and your schedule is everything to a pilot.
06-26-2016, 05:14 AM
#3475
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Or, "If we can just make it till summer, the extra flying will help us get better lines built."
It's summer now and if they can't build good lines at present, they aren't going to.
06-26-2016, 05:32 AM
#3476
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 615
Just a quick peek, but the bottom 5 FO line holders this month at my airline have 13-16 days off and 82-94 hours credit. Also it appears to be their 3rd month off IOE and their 2nd month holding a line.
Don't defend terrible lines at your company by assuming other airlines have it just as bad.
06-26-2016, 06:04 AM
#3477
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: CL65
Posts: 955
Just a quick peek, but the bottom 5 FO line holders this month at my airline have 13-16 days off and 82-94 hours credit. Also it appears to be their 3rd month off IOE and their 2nd month holding a line.
Don't defend terrible lines at your company by assuming other airlines have it just as bad.
Don't defend terrible lines at your company by assuming other airlines have it just as bad.
Hire date February 2015.
15 days off, crediting 77.5 hours. Most all trips start early and end early. I don't know if he is a commuter or lives in base, but all are commutable on one side very easily, if not both sides.
He also has 12 days off in a row without the use of a vacation. I don't know what the original award looked like, but that is what it looks like now after the SAP.
06-26-2016, 06:22 AM
#3478
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 194
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
06-26-2016, 06:49 AM
#3480
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 667
For all that are wondering whether Envoy is a good fit for you here is something to look at.
Is this airline hiring more bodies monthly than it is losing?
Quality of life at any airline means people in behind you. Moving up on the seniority list does little to help you in a holding any decent schedule or bidding for any decent vacation weeks. When you are always at the bottom ten percent you will always get the garbage no one wants.
Another thing to look at is when and if you actually hold a line. Normaly holding a line at any airline is a QOL bump. But if the airline keeps getting the scraps of all the garbage flying all the other airlines don't want you end up with lines that are even worse than being on reserve. So you have to take account not how long you can hold a line, more so, you have to take into account how long you can hold a line worthy of bidding off reserve. Most junior line holders don't come into play at Envoy. If you look at the reserve list you will see many senior folks bidding reserve because the lines are even worse than reserve itself.
Another issue is your own personal tolerance to pain. If you have a low tolerance for being lied to, or a low tolerance of having a company violate any contractual gains you or your Union may have gained over the years, then Envoy may not be the place for you.
Another issue to look at is your own level of self respect. If you go to Envoy expecting to be treated well, this may be a problem.
No one can make the choice for you on where a good home would be. Only you and your family can make that choice.
If you do choose to go to an airline like Envoy, do it going in with the fact that most likely you will have few come in behind you. Their hiring numbers are a fact, and are well short of keeping up with attrition.
The lines to be had whether you commute or not, based off their own unions emails, have clearly stated they see no hope for improvements. Not only that, I was told that the company has now been keeping union members from getting leave to help build the lines. So know that going in, even though you may hold a line, you will be wishing you were on reserve for years.
It would be unwise to go to any airline with the hopes of good things to come. Go back and look at the Envoy threads. For years now good things have always been around the corner, yet nothing ever comes from the rumors.
Even ALPA has run the numbers on the upgrade/flow projections. Seems to me they don't beleive the numbers will now work out as planned. How I would interpret just that fact alone, is I was being lied to, even before I step through the door. Knowing they have to lie to get me into the door says it all to me. If your company sucks that bad, where you have to lie to me just to get me there I may be better off at Home Depot.
If I were a new hire truly looking at the many different airlines available I would go to a company that pays me the most bang for my buck. That means time for dollars. Who is gonna pay me the most to put up with their BS. Who is gonna get me home more? Who is gonna keep me commuting less, if I have to commute. All those things add up to time for dollars.
You do that and my guess is Envoy would be close to the bottom of your list. The only way I would go to an Envoy would be a solid seniority number at AA. Until they get that your better off making more money somewhere else. And truthfully it seems to me, based off their hiring numbers you risk little by going elswhere. Make as much money as you can at a better paying airline. Enjoy a better QOL and wait to see if AAG actually does a true 100 percent flow through, with AA numbers from day one. Once they do that you can bounce with the extra money you made, and have lost a few spots in seniority due to their inability to hire the required amount of pilots.
If they don't do that chances are they are way too behind to catch up at this point and you will be much happier you went somwhere else, with the extra money in your pocket and your family seeing you more.
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
Is this airline hiring more bodies monthly than it is losing?
Quality of life at any airline means people in behind you. Moving up on the seniority list does little to help you in a holding any decent schedule or bidding for any decent vacation weeks. When you are always at the bottom ten percent you will always get the garbage no one wants.
Another thing to look at is when and if you actually hold a line. Normaly holding a line at any airline is a QOL bump. But if the airline keeps getting the scraps of all the garbage flying all the other airlines don't want you end up with lines that are even worse than being on reserve. So you have to take account not how long you can hold a line, more so, you have to take into account how long you can hold a line worthy of bidding off reserve. Most junior line holders don't come into play at Envoy. If you look at the reserve list you will see many senior folks bidding reserve because the lines are even worse than reserve itself.
Another issue is your own personal tolerance to pain. If you have a low tolerance for being lied to, or a low tolerance of having a company violate any contractual gains you or your Union may have gained over the years, then Envoy may not be the place for you.
Another issue to look at is your own level of self respect. If you go to Envoy expecting to be treated well, this may be a problem.
No one can make the choice for you on where a good home would be. Only you and your family can make that choice.
If you do choose to go to an airline like Envoy, do it going in with the fact that most likely you will have few come in behind you. Their hiring numbers are a fact, and are well short of keeping up with attrition.
The lines to be had whether you commute or not, based off their own unions emails, have clearly stated they see no hope for improvements. Not only that, I was told that the company has now been keeping union members from getting leave to help build the lines. So know that going in, even though you may hold a line, you will be wishing you were on reserve for years.
It would be unwise to go to any airline with the hopes of good things to come. Go back and look at the Envoy threads. For years now good things have always been around the corner, yet nothing ever comes from the rumors.
Even ALPA has run the numbers on the upgrade/flow projections. Seems to me they don't beleive the numbers will now work out as planned. How I would interpret just that fact alone, is I was being lied to, even before I step through the door. Knowing they have to lie to get me into the door says it all to me. If your company sucks that bad, where you have to lie to me just to get me there I may be better off at Home Depot.
If I were a new hire truly looking at the many different airlines available I would go to a company that pays me the most bang for my buck. That means time for dollars. Who is gonna pay me the most to put up with their BS. Who is gonna get me home more? Who is gonna keep me commuting less, if I have to commute. All those things add up to time for dollars.
You do that and my guess is Envoy would be close to the bottom of your list. The only way I would go to an Envoy would be a solid seniority number at AA. Until they get that your better off making more money somewhere else. And truthfully it seems to me, based off their hiring numbers you risk little by going elswhere. Make as much money as you can at a better paying airline. Enjoy a better QOL and wait to see if AAG actually does a true 100 percent flow through, with AA numbers from day one. Once they do that you can bounce with the extra money you made, and have lost a few spots in seniority due to their inability to hire the required amount of pilots.
If they don't do that chances are they are way too behind to catch up at this point and you will be much happier you went somwhere else, with the extra money in your pocket and your family seeing you more.
All my opinion, but given the fact that pilots are indeed the new currency I would not sell myself short for some pipe dream. Costs a company nothing to lie to you as a way to get you in the door. If the numbers don't add up they simply don't add up, even with common core, the math is wrong. I would park my butt where I get paid the best now, and wait for the other airlines to do something industry leading that has real teeth to it.
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