eaglefly

Maybe the things the sole survivor valued Envoy for were aspects that weren't about shiny metal or flow-thru's ?

To label him an idiot is pretty presumptive IMO.

RyanP

How long have you been in this business?

20-30 seniority numbers was the difference between me getting displaced out of my base before. It was the difference between me getting downgraded and not holding onto a CA seat twice, losing THOUSANDS of dollars/month while I sat in the right seat instead, not getting TPIC time. It was the difference between having a decent reserve schedule vs being close to the bottom of the list for YEARS as a Captain. It is the difference between getting a horrible trip on RSV vs getting exactly what you wanted. It is the difference between getting the OT you put in for or not. It makes the difference of getting weekends off, getting the vacations you want, If I was 30 numbers senior I wouldn't be stuck with this POS 0400 sim schedule every time I go through long term with the same group of guys because I could bid what I wanted. Once you flow to AA, since the classes will be filled with other new hires as well as flows, it compounds that number every class you are delayed, that 20-30 seniority numbers you lost will be even worse and be the difference of like 100+ people you are junior too for the rest of your career at AA. With them bidding things you wanted every month but you can't get, all because of a stupid decision to hold out for the 175 and short term gratification.

Seniority controls EVERYTHING. I am still kicking myself over a decade later for not starting one month earlier here when I had the opportunity because it has screwed me over more times than I can count not being 30 numbers senior. My friend 10 numbers ahead of me, every month without fail, always gets what I wanted to bid, or gets the weekend off I wanted, or get the Christmas off I didn't get every year, or the late afternoon show times I wanted, or the sim slot I wanted. If I was senior to him that wouldn't ever happen. I have to live with that for the next 30 years. (All because I wanted a Holiday off as a new hire and delayed my class by 1 class of 30 people). It was extremely shortsighted on my part. That one Holiday I got off by doing that literally cost me years of never getting that Holiday off again. I was an idiot for doing that. No problem admitting it and I would never do it again. Now I am trying to tell people don't make the same mistake. The 175 is not worth it!

Yeah, the 175 guys might get it better initially for a while, but long term it's a stupid choice. Inevitably, things will shift around and their quick movement will end up getting shifted around when a displacement/vacancy comes out and the senior guys pounce on that and take what they deserve (being senior). There is times of weird situations like this where some junior people make out like bandits for a while, but it never lasts forever. Seniority will always come back and bite you in the arse in the end. So What happens the next displacement bid comes out as 145's shrink and 175 grows? I have been displaced 5 times in my career. Displacements and bases opening/closing are a part of airline life. It's not a matter of if, but when. They will displace pilots off the 145 in DFW, guaranteed at some point as we take on more 175's, that guy that sucked it up will be senior to everyone of the 175 wannabe's and he can potentially displace them out of their seat and take it from them kicking them out to another base onto another fleet potentially. Lol.

Who is the idiot now?

If you can get in the first available class and choose equipment? Sure, 175 is a no brainer, but if you have to delay class for months or to the end of Summer just to get the 175, that is retarded. Yet, that is exactly what they are choosing to do.

Pete389

Perfectly stated...after four furloughs and a couple shut downs I will say that nothing, and I mean NOTHING, matters more than seniority. As Yoda would say..."A wise move you did not make."

SkyWago

Heard from someone at the training center, the 1 that started in this last class took it because he had to be done by a certain date because of his ATP written expiration date.

And Dfw is dfw and its better than nothing.

adspilot

You do realize that no one working here would agree with this statement?

SkylineAviation

Truest thing I've ever read on here. New hires need to read this.

chignutsak

One of the dumbest statements I have read on this board in quite some time.

AdiosMikeFox

Thank you for injecting some reason into the discussion. Conditions to get hired at a regional today are positively luxurious compared to what they were just a short while ago, or even a decade ago. Signing bonuses, choice of base and equipment, bonuses for 121 time, quicker upgrade. Regionals falling over themselves to fight over the limited pool of recruits can sure make it seem like you're a real princess.

Thing is, you never know when the door will close. Humans are pretty dumb when it comes to assessing risk vs reward. That's why you end up with corporations reaping record profits for years and ****ing them away only to wind up in bankruptcy. For me, just a few months difference in seniority made years of difference in upgrade time and had a massive effect of where I sit to flow to AA. It put me behind that many more people in PIC time for that all important metric on your resumé.

A few mere week's time has cost me tens of thousands of dollars. At a regional. I could've bought and paid off brand new cars several times over with what I've missed out on. That much more in my retirement fund. Paid off more of my mortgage.

Keep that in mind when you pass up that class date.

RyanP

Same here. Delaying my new hire class has cost me over 30 grand, easy over my career.

It just happened again a couple classes back as well. When FO's got the retention bonus out of the blue for $20,000. You had to be on property by the date listed. There was new hires I talked too in the training center that were ****ed they delayed their class to the next class, so they missed the FO retention bonus literally by a matter of a few days. 20 grand down the toilet. Previous class got it, they don't. That is a real kick in the nuts.

eaglefly

Another demonstration of ebb and flow and many pilots simply don't understand the past. Never pass up seniority when it is offered if it is somewhere you WANT to be. Pilots actually have that choice now, but it wasn't always that way.

In the mid 1980's when the regional airlines were still called "Commuter Airlines", pilots were elated to get a job with one from the flight Instructor/Charter pilot or freight dog slot and the common minimum flight time requirements were 2000TT/500ME. That was for the luxury of a right seat spot (usually throwing bags too) on a Metroliner, BE-99, BE-1900, Jetstream or Twin Otter. Later in the decade by 1990, the minimums hadn't changed much, but new generation turboprops with glass cockpits like the SAAB 340, ATR or Dash 8 came with pressurization and a flight attendant. Pilots salivated.

Enter the Gulf War and recessions and a 6-8 year stagnation cycle. Pilots cried to the heavens.

15-20 years later, the same industry had taken over half the domestic operations from the majors (and new pilots wonder why it's STILL difficult to get on with a legacy) and then it was common for me to fly with a new pilot with 1000 hours who expected to be a 70-seat jet captain within 2 years by his mid 20's, at a major by 30, on the 757 in a year or two and captain by late 30's. They had it all figured out. Reality slapped most in the face shortly thereafter. At Eagle when upgrades didn't go fast enough in the next downturn by 9/11, pilots jumped ship for street captains at other carriers because "my buddy just upgrading in 8 months at X Airlines". 500-hour pilots were common.

Now, we are back to about the middle and 1500 hours (with no real multiengine or instrument experience) being all that's necessary and even 1000 if at an accredited college. This is certainly reasonable, but crimping the profits and viability of and industry that can no longer maintain its original outsourcing goals has resulted in an increasing crisis. Along with it, are the unrealistic expectations of many pilots as has repeatedly occurred in the past in the constant ebb and flow of this profession. My, how times (and pilots) have changed, yet not changed.