New Envoy Information
11-18-2015, 04:05 AM
#191
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 30
The regional I flew for (American Eagle, Inc.) is by no means what it has become (Envoy). Neither in the carrier itself, nor many of the people still there. I don't see myself as saying bad things about the company per se, but more about some of those people who come here and peddle horse****. Again, if any pilots want the truth about Envoy, go to Eaglelounge (which really should be "Envoylounge"), and hear it directly from the horses themselves. They're whinnying up a storm over there.
All I do is highlight to false assumptions and dubious promises that are peddled here like this character does and just today, to boot.
All I do is highlight to false assumptions and dubious promises that are peddled here like this character does and just today, to boot.
if you want to tell people the truth tell them what is happening now
because we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow.
11-18-2015, 04:06 AM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 547
I do encourage anyone considering envoy to check out Eaglelounge. Many do vent on there but you have to consider human and pilot nature. You can walk up to a flight crew member and give them $100 cash and walk away and they will find something to complain about. Hotel Van drivers must think that Flight Crews are the biggest bunch of cry babies in the universe. Similar to when you look online for reviews for a certain product. Even the best product in the world will have a bunch of complaints online. Why? When someone has a problem with a product, they will most definitely let everyone know about it but when they are pleased with it, they are far less likely to get online and post their praise for it. It is just human nature. You will see 100% of the gripes and maybe 10% of the good.
Many on Eaglelounge may complain about the bid lines or reserve but when they get a drop approved or a good line, they are less likely to get on the internet to say so. For instance, I see many complain about the schedules in the last few years but the schedules we are getting now are the same kind of schedules I have seen my friends fly at TSA, RAH, SKW and Xjet for years. Its not that envoy is any worse than any other regional, its just that the better than average schedules that we used to enjoy are more like the average regional now. Parker has taken us from a Mainline B Scale company to your average regional. Many at envoy have been shielded from the realities of your average regional, motivating their reactions. Another example, complaints about reserve. Every line and every reserve schedule cannot be commutable. Who gets stuck with those uncommutable schedules, the junior guys. Its just a part of an airline pilots life. At least at envoy, we can proffer for reserve trips. How many regionals allow you to use your seniority to choose what reserve trip you get to fly? We have many senior CAs & FOs that bid reserve because they can get such a good schedule using the reserve proffer and RAP assignment system. Not to mention, you can easily get 10 - 15% more pay each month creating conflicts with our hard schedule system in comparison to PBS. What other regional has that? Plus, if I need certain days off, I just bid those lines. There is no wondering and hoping that the PBS will award what I need.
90% of the things I hear guys complain about on EL are things that the average regional pilot has delt with as normal practice for longer than I have been in this industry.
Many on Eaglelounge may complain about the bid lines or reserve but when they get a drop approved or a good line, they are less likely to get on the internet to say so. For instance, I see many complain about the schedules in the last few years but the schedules we are getting now are the same kind of schedules I have seen my friends fly at TSA, RAH, SKW and Xjet for years. Its not that envoy is any worse than any other regional, its just that the better than average schedules that we used to enjoy are more like the average regional now. Parker has taken us from a Mainline B Scale company to your average regional. Many at envoy have been shielded from the realities of your average regional, motivating their reactions. Another example, complaints about reserve. Every line and every reserve schedule cannot be commutable. Who gets stuck with those uncommutable schedules, the junior guys. Its just a part of an airline pilots life. At least at envoy, we can proffer for reserve trips. How many regionals allow you to use your seniority to choose what reserve trip you get to fly? We have many senior CAs & FOs that bid reserve because they can get such a good schedule using the reserve proffer and RAP assignment system. Not to mention, you can easily get 10 - 15% more pay each month creating conflicts with our hard schedule system in comparison to PBS. What other regional has that? Plus, if I need certain days off, I just bid those lines. There is no wondering and hoping that the PBS will award what I need.
90% of the things I hear guys complain about on EL are things that the average regional pilot has delt with as normal practice for longer than I have been in this industry.
Last edited by FlameNSky; 11-18-2015 at 04:22 AM.
11-18-2015, 06:03 AM
#193
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I work here now, and have been here for almost 8 years. Im not going to came here and waste my time and yours trying to explain to you that the flow is working NOW . Tell that to the guys that are flowing every month. I dont know what is going to happen in the future but NOW there's guys flowing every month and that is good for me. Im a member of Eaglelounge and they dont represent the majority of the pilots here they always complain for everything whether is good or bad for us they always have a problem. I dont know if the 2.5 and 6 years is going to happen for the new guys that came here but if the flow keeps going the way is NOW, Capt upgrade is going to happen much faster than what it is now. So please by doing what you doing you are not helping anybody here or a new pilot that want to come here.
if you want to tell people the truth tell them what is happening now
because we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow.
if you want to tell people the truth tell them what is happening now
because we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow.
The flow IS working now. I've never disputed that even though last Summer there was a big brouhaha when AA didn't take any Envoy pilots when they should have. Making up for it after the fact doesn't change that, but yes, for arguments sake I'll agree that was an anomaly. But "now" isn't next Summer, 18 months or 6 years from now. That has been my point. The pilots flowing now are part of an arbitration award and most are above the competitions pay grades and thus there may be another component driving that flow for now. That dynamic could change completely once the last 824 flows, which looks like now will be in sometime in late 2017. Thus, NO ONE..........and I mean NO ONE, not even Parker himself can accurately make ANY promises about what an Envoy new-hire might realize at any point in the future. Any pilot who believes such a prognostication deserves what he/she gets.
As far as EL, I think it actually is a good litmus. I talk directly to Envoy pilots weekly in passing I knew there and they virtually ALL say the same thing, i.e., they've got one foot out the door at the first opportunity and the QWL there flat out sucks. Most have little faith in their union reps to correct the situation as well. Now admittedly, these are mostly more senior F/O's who've been there 5-8 years (which says something) and not senior captains in the 824. These senior pilots all to a T talk about being senior and getting poor schedules with 11-12 days off, low times and poor commutability. EL just backs that up with more pilots I don't converse with personally. I know a few of the 824's too and they plan to flow because most believe they have little hope in being picked up by a company that is more then a lateral move like DAL, UAL, FedEx or perhaps SWA. They're in their 40's or older and feel they have missed the boat. They don't want to start at the bottom of an LCC at those pay rates and futures. I know a few lifers (a couple who were even senior to me) who plan to retire there or go down with the ship, in the unlikely event that occurs first.
I'm more then aware of life at Envoy and compared to life at the old Letter 3 American Eagle pre-2010, it sounds like a disaster. Beware of ANYONE who rationalizes that as simply being just another regional existence equal to others. There are worse places to be sure, but QWL is better at others as well. I've talked to a few SkyWest pilots and even looked at a recent bid sheet and it was similar to what I recall at the old AE. Not saying anyone shouldn't go to Envoy, just do it for valid reasons that are quantifiable. What happens with the flow in 2,4 or 6 years is NOT a quantifiable reason IMO.
11-18-2015, 07:09 AM
#194
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
It's good you've chosen not to explain to me about the flow as I'm perfectly aware of what is occurring with it. It WOULD in fact, be wasting both of our times.
The flow IS working now. I've never disputed that even though last Summer there was a big brouhaha when AA didn't take any Envoy pilots when they should have. Making up for it after the fact doesn't change that, but yes, for arguments sake I'll agree that was an anomaly. But "now" isn't next Summer, 18 months or 6 years from now. That has been my point. The pilots flowing now are part of an arbitration award and most are above the competitions pay grades and thus there may be another component driving that flow for now. That dynamic could change completely once the last 824 flows, which looks like now will be in sometime in late 2017. Thus, NO ONE..........and I mean NO ONE, not even Parker himself can accurately make ANY promises about what an Envoy new-hire might realize at any point in the future. Any pilot who believes such a prognostication deserves what he/she gets.
As far as EL, I think it actually is a good litmus. I talk directly to Envoy pilots weekly in passing I knew there and they virtually ALL say the same thing, i.e., they've got one foot out the door at the first opportunity and the QWL there flat out sucks. Most have little faith in their union reps to correct the situation as well. Now admittedly, these are mostly more senior F/O's who've been there 5-8 years (which says something) and not senior captains in the 824. These senior pilots all to a T talk about being senior and getting poor schedules with 11-12 days off, low times and poor commutability. EL just backs that up with more pilots I don't converse with personally. I know a few of the 824's too and they plan to flow because most believe they have little hope in being picked up by a company that is more then a lateral move like DAL, UAL, FedEx or perhaps SWA. They're in their 40's or older and feel they have missed the boat. They don't want to start at the bottom of an LCC at those pay rates and futures. I know a few lifers (a couple who were even senior to me) who plan to retire there or go down with the ship, in the unlikely event that occurs first.
I'm more then aware of life at Envoy and compared to life at the old Letter 3 American Eagle pre-2010, it sounds like a disaster. Beware of ANYONE who rationalizes that as simply being just another regional existence equal to others. There are worse places to be sure, but QWL is better at others as well. I've talked to a few SkyWest pilots and even looked at a recent bid sheet and it was similar to what I recall at the old AE. Not saying anyone shouldn't go to Envoy, just do it for valid reasons that are quantifiable. What happens with the flow in 2,4 or 6 years is NOT a quantifiable reason IMO.
The flow IS working now. I've never disputed that even though last Summer there was a big brouhaha when AA didn't take any Envoy pilots when they should have. Making up for it after the fact doesn't change that, but yes, for arguments sake I'll agree that was an anomaly. But "now" isn't next Summer, 18 months or 6 years from now. That has been my point. The pilots flowing now are part of an arbitration award and most are above the competitions pay grades and thus there may be another component driving that flow for now. That dynamic could change completely once the last 824 flows, which looks like now will be in sometime in late 2017. Thus, NO ONE..........and I mean NO ONE, not even Parker himself can accurately make ANY promises about what an Envoy new-hire might realize at any point in the future. Any pilot who believes such a prognostication deserves what he/she gets.
As far as EL, I think it actually is a good litmus. I talk directly to Envoy pilots weekly in passing I knew there and they virtually ALL say the same thing, i.e., they've got one foot out the door at the first opportunity and the QWL there flat out sucks. Most have little faith in their union reps to correct the situation as well. Now admittedly, these are mostly more senior F/O's who've been there 5-8 years (which says something) and not senior captains in the 824. These senior pilots all to a T talk about being senior and getting poor schedules with 11-12 days off, low times and poor commutability. EL just backs that up with more pilots I don't converse with personally. I know a few of the 824's too and they plan to flow because most believe they have little hope in being picked up by a company that is more then a lateral move like DAL, UAL, FedEx or perhaps SWA. They're in their 40's or older and feel they have missed the boat. They don't want to start at the bottom of an LCC at those pay rates and futures. I know a few lifers (a couple who were even senior to me) who plan to retire there or go down with the ship, in the unlikely event that occurs first.
I'm more then aware of life at Envoy and compared to life at the old Letter 3 American Eagle pre-2010, it sounds like a disaster. Beware of ANYONE who rationalizes that as simply being just another regional existence equal to others. There are worse places to be sure, but QWL is better at others as well. I've talked to a few SkyWest pilots and even looked at a recent bid sheet and it was similar to what I recall at the old AE. Not saying anyone shouldn't go to Envoy, just do it for valid reasons that are quantifiable. What happens with the flow in 2,4 or 6 years is NOT a quantifiable reason IMO.
11-18-2015, 07:15 AM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 547
Is there an internet term for when one internet troll starts arguing with another internet troll? Maybe he is arguing with himself?
There should be a term for that...
Trology? Double Trollin'? Troll on Troll Circle Jerk?
There should be a term for that...
Trology? Double Trollin'? Troll on Troll Circle Jerk?
11-18-2015, 07:19 AM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: Canadian Alluminum Tubing Assistant Transporter
Posts: 164
I've told you again and again. Times are different. Envoy now has a 2.5 year upgrade and a 6 year flow. That's a FACT. What about that do you not understand? Are you upset that a new hire will be at AA in 6 years instead of your 20? Does that bother you that we (Envoy) are essentially all AA pilots today? That we fly mainline aircraft (175) instead of ratty old turboprops? Seems like you can't get over that we have it better than you did.
11-18-2015, 07:35 AM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 439
So true...I'm all for trolling the PSA forums because those guys are scum, but the envoy pilot group is full of stand-up guys and girls, so it's unfortunate that our thread has turned into a troll on troll circle jerk (I like that term the best.) Maybe Cujo664 is eaglefly?? Wouldn't surprise me!
11-18-2015, 07:41 AM
#198
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 699
So true...I'm all for trolling the PSA forums because those guys are scum, but the envoy pilot group is full of stand-up guys and girls, so it's unfortunate that our thread has turned into a troll on troll circle jerk (I like that term the best.) Maybe Cujo664 is eaglefly?? Wouldn't surprise me!
11-18-2015, 07:41 AM
#199
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
So true...I'm all for trolling the PSA forums because those guys are scum, but the envoy pilot group is full of stand-up guys and girls, so it's unfortunate that our thread has turned into a troll on troll circle jerk (I like that term the best.) Maybe Cujo664 is eaglefly?? Wouldn't surprise me!
I suppose one could say then that under your demented logic, Envoy pilots decide what is "acceptable" trolling and what isn't. All that proves is trolling is in the eye of the beholder. Most Envoy pilots are indeed good people, just as most PSA pilots are, likewise Legacy or regional X.
Of course, at least in the eye of this beholder, Envoy has a few real scumbags too and they demonstrate that on a daily basis.
"Trolling" for suckers on this forum to grease one's own ride is IMO, the worst form of trolling there is.
11-18-2015, 07:44 AM
#200
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Some of these characters are indeed Koo-Koo for Cocoa Puffs.
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