ag386

You guys must run in the same circles. How is a fact today that the latest person to flow is a 16.5 year employee twisted, with some pie in the sky "projection" of a new hire flowing in 6 years? I believe new hires in 99 were told similar. "You'll all be at AA in 5 years."

The FACT is, today, that the flow is 16.5 years.

Bob Loblaw

bwahaaahaaahaaahaaaa!

Oh ****, that is some rich manure right there!

Bob Loblaw

You are correct. The flow is a 16 year flow for someone flowing today.

For someone hired today, the flow is currently an empty promise.

PilotCrusader

There you go with poor reading comprehension again. Come on big guy! If you are gonna play in this pool, reading skills above 5th grade are a must. That or you are just spinning again.

You are the one trying to shine on poor unsuspecting potential new hires this flow - selling it as sure thing. You can "say" that a new hire will be at AA in 6 years, but there is no FACT.

The FACTS:
- The current pilots flowing from envoy/eagle to AA have been on this property over 16 years
- 16 years ago, these pilots were sold this same snake oil: that they would be at AA in 3-5 years. 9/11, recession, age 65, all slowed the flow(all of which, particularly recession, can happen again) On top of that, it took a dang lawsuit and arbitrated agreement to get people to AA after the company decided to largely ignore the original agreement.
- There is "gray area" language put in the flow that states that Envoy can meter the 50% flow down to 30 pilots per month, if the 50% will affect operations. The original intent of this gray area was to provide an out for the company of things went seriously south. Not only has envoy been metering the flow with no reason faithful to this understanding, but several months you sent less than 30!

This company has a history of completely ignoring contracts as they see fit, to include the flow. All evidence points to it happening again.

I urge all potential new hires and current pilots to take into account FACTS, not snake oil salesman who have proven time and time again that they are only interested in self preservation.

eaglefly

I find it confusing you consider my posts unworthy of response simply by virtue of the fact I no longer work there. It would seem you (and to be fair, others) believe this on the idea that those who no longer work at Envoy (or who have never worked there), don't have anything of value to add to a conversation about Envoy. This confusion is supported by the very fact that here, you validate one of my points as worthy of your elaboration in opposition to any such belief. Of course, the other reason is that you have an agenda and seek excuses to deflect that which doesn't support that agenda with what you see as a viable excuse, in this case not being a present Envoy pilot.


Any pilot on this forum who hasn't noticed the shift in the regional landscape in the last few years is either comatose or serving time in a maximum security correctional facility in protective custody with no outside information. The fact that Envoy is turning away pilots says even more about the future availability of acceptable entry-level bodies and belies even more the challenges that are all but certain to force Envoy to adapt in new, as yet unrevealed ways, so your theoretical comparison of yet another unquantifiable variable that assumes comparisons with other carriers like RAH for example and using the flow to AA as an end-game superiority basis is more optimistic assumption, then fact and I think a poor model to offer.

The fact that you even have to make this latest plea here also proves that more pilots both from within Envoy and outside are indeed evaluating their options in considering or continuing at Envoy with disregard to other opportunities and that evaluation ISN'T turning in Envoy's favor. I hear a whopping 3 pilots entered training in the last new-hire class ? I think there's a reason for that and the fact is that many pilots now are gaining a better understanding of what is something built on promise for the interest of others and what is more quantifiable for themselves and the drivers are growth and advancement that is actual and not theoretical. Additionally, It seems more pilots are better at avoiding carriers whose managements have a longer and/or more obvious history of not living up to their promises and concurrent poor treatment of their pilots and these carriers are now finding themselves at even more disadvantage convincing pilots that the pretty present does indeed have something inside the box.

I guess the pilot crisis is forcing an unpleasant reality for many carriers (not just Envoy) and that involves the old concept of "talking the talk and walking the walk". IMO, if Envoy truly wants to solve its problems (or at least maximize its attractiveness in what is a hopelessly deteriorating situation), it's time to stop the bull**** and walk the walk. Quick Band-Aid scheme's won't cut it anymore as I think this latest one will prove within 6 months or so. It's now time to nut up and start truly valuing what is becoming an extremely scarce resource critical to the future of your business and that is living up to your agreements, the cessation of trying to sharp shoot your employees to maximize your advantages and provide a decent and fair CBA that is above all HONORED. In the long run, that's really in your best interest.

I realize that is placing yourself at what you believe to be significant risk and goes against all your instincts, but if you truly desire a course reversal, you will never achieve the perception that Envoy is worthy of "cradle to grave" consideration as opposed to something of disregard or ridicule, much like YOU have become here as evidenced by the posts above and previously. I think pilots are getting smarter now and any loyalty is all but gone. Sadly, let's face it.........."culture change" was supposed to come to AA as a result of this merger, at least that was the promise. It has not despite the baseless claims of some here that "this time things are different" (at least in regard to Envoy) and Envoy is simply a byproduct of that which it serves and thus the apple does not fall far from the tree.

If this tree isn't nurtured it will rot and collapse and people far above you need to understand that like apparently other legacies do, for if they don't, most of us will have no apples to eat.

Bigpimppilot

It's over a 8 yrs to upgrade. Many were told in 2007 it was a 4.5 yr upgrade.

PilotCrusader

Exactly!!
CR700, aka envoy management, is coming on here selling something that isn't certain, hasn't been certain in the past, misdirecting away from the absolutely god awful schedules and quality of life at envoy, all the while completely unwilling to actually put something real and tangible on the table. Trust me - Tricky Dic(less) believes all of us are just dumb pilots.

Wait for the spin to follow after they FINALLY announce 90 upgrades today.

Skyvector

In other news....almost 90 Captain upgrades announced today. Looks like new hires will start to be sent to the E-175.

Eaglepilot84

87 CA vacancies announced. I'm guessing it will go to somewhere in March 08

eaglefly

To put things in perspective, if 50 upgrades are announced shortly it would take 2-3 months to run them through. It's March and 50 upgrades quarterly is about 200 upgrades in 2016 or simply the previously announced projection, so even with a 50 upgrade announcement, it really wouldn't be anything new. 10 months of 30 upgrades per month would.

I don't think any such announcement in and of itself is indicative of anything new or different, but yes, I'd expect it to be spun that way, since Envoy has turned itself into a top lately in that department.