New Envoy Information
02-18-2016, 06:03 AM
#1181
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
Conspiratorial management plant/envoy salesman cheerleader here!
What? Seriously, WHAT? Out of all the posts I see here this one completely seems like an ENY/AAG PR rep piece. "...reliable feed...career path...positioning envoy to be the premier regional..." All corporate-speak.
I cannot believe what I'm hearing from management, or the previous poster.
All last year, despite the negative Nancys, AAG looked to be holding true to what they said they were going to do in regards to ENY's flow and future.
AAG/ENY has done an about-face and returned to their BS and failed promises. Last year I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Wait and see. Things were looking OK, people could start moving up and out. They were holding up their end of the bargain. The actions of the company this year make liars of them. ENY is just another crappy regional at this point, arguably worse than others in some ways. But hey, it's just a transfer to AA, right?
OK Mr./Ms. AAG/ENY PR rep, tell us how AA/ENY are going to surmount these issues while remaining within the bounds of the contract and arbitrated awards? If it were possible, I think we would have been told by now, and it would benefit hiring because people would see that we were moving ahead - but this is not the reality that is presented by ENY. Do tell, cr700, how this will all be made right? I was one of your supporters last year and we've all been let down. Tell me why I'm wrong, point by point.
I think it's pretty obvious that you've got an axe to grind with Envoy. Seriously, are you upset that it took you 20 years to flow? Most guys flowing now will be in their early 30's, some may even been in their late 20's with the 6 year flow, giving them a full career span at the premier major carrier in the U.S. Maybe that is what's giving you heartburn, I don't know.
What I do know is that AAG has recognized the need for reliable feed and believes that keeping it in house is the best way to give pilots what they want. A career path from Day One. Envoy management isn't "out to get the pilot group." They are in fact, trying to help facilitate a pilots career expectation by offering them a clear, and very brief path to AA.
Try to remember, this isn't AMR anymore. It's AAG and with that comes a whole different executive management team. One that literally does what they say they are going to do. If it weren't for AAG, Envoy wouldn't have the robust flow that we have today.
In addition, AAG is positioning Envoy to be the premier regional carrier in the U.S. We'll likely be operating all 175's within 5 years or less. Kind of beats those crappy, loud 19 seat turboprops you were probably flying back in the 80's.
Envoy guys just need to be patient and let AAG's plan start working. It already is in fact. 30 Envoy pilots recently just transferred to AA with no interview and no new hire process. Just a transfer. Being wholly owned, you are already part of American Airlines and it's just like moving from the CRJ over to the 175. Just a transfer.
What I do know is that AAG has recognized the need for reliable feed and believes that keeping it in house is the best way to give pilots what they want. A career path from Day One. Envoy management isn't "out to get the pilot group." They are in fact, trying to help facilitate a pilots career expectation by offering them a clear, and very brief path to AA.
Try to remember, this isn't AMR anymore. It's AAG and with that comes a whole different executive management team. One that literally does what they say they are going to do. If it weren't for AAG, Envoy wouldn't have the robust flow that we have today.
In addition, AAG is positioning Envoy to be the premier regional carrier in the U.S. We'll likely be operating all 175's within 5 years or less. Kind of beats those crappy, loud 19 seat turboprops you were probably flying back in the 80's.
Envoy guys just need to be patient and let AAG's plan start working. It already is in fact. 30 Envoy pilots recently just transferred to AA with no interview and no new hire process. Just a transfer. Being wholly owned, you are already part of American Airlines and it's just like moving from the CRJ over to the 175. Just a transfer.
I cannot believe what I'm hearing from management, or the previous poster.
All last year, despite the negative Nancys, AAG looked to be holding true to what they said they were going to do in regards to ENY's flow and future.
- They reduced the number of departing aircraft
- Returned some flying with the promise of additional hours returning this spring
- Had a small upgrade with the promise of more to come in rapid succession starting this year
- 2.5 to CA and 6 to flow for the newhire hired TODAY (today being the late summer/fall of last year).
- Despite the devastating effects of shutting down all but two domiciles we got small returns like hotel rooms and an extended commuter policy (still a sh*t deal, but better than nothing)
- Bumped up the flow in accordance with the arrival of the 175
- Failed to gain additional flying
- Failed to upgrade
- 2.5/6 is essentially impossible. They could hand out AA numbers to us and that still doesn't qualify as flowing - we are supposed to get 50% of EACH CLASS, not 100% into a pool. Unless there's some miracle in the works there's no way to cram the full required flow through the AA training center (Due to Letter T returnees, July slowdown and December shutdown of the AA training facility for newhires) much less our own training center to meet the upgrade target.
- Metered the flow to less than 50% with the unfathomable excuse that the departure of the pilots would disrupt operations despite having zero time and part time lines, line values sub-70 hour average along with 35%+ of the pilot group on reserve. Bull ****
- Returning Letter T pilots may/may not make "truing up" flows at the end of the year per our contract physically impossible
AAG/ENY has done an about-face and returned to their BS and failed promises. Last year I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Wait and see. Things were looking OK, people could start moving up and out. They were holding up their end of the bargain. The actions of the company this year make liars of them. ENY is just another crappy regional at this point, arguably worse than others in some ways. But hey, it's just a transfer to AA, right?
OK Mr./Ms. AAG/ENY PR rep, tell us how AA/ENY are going to surmount these issues while remaining within the bounds of the contract and arbitrated awards? If it were possible, I think we would have been told by now, and it would benefit hiring because people would see that we were moving ahead - but this is not the reality that is presented by ENY. Do tell, cr700, how this will all be made right? I was one of your supporters last year and we've all been let down. Tell me why I'm wrong, point by point.
Last edited by AdiosMikeFox; 02-18-2016 at 06:16 AM.
02-18-2016, 07:00 AM
#1184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
Conspiratorial management plant/envoy salesman cheerleader here!
What? Seriously, WHAT? Out of all the posts I see here this one completely seems like an ENY/AAG PR rep piece. "...reliable feed...career path...positioning envoy to be the premier regional..." All corporate-speak.
I cannot believe what I'm hearing from management, or the previous poster.
All last year, despite the negative Nancys, AAG looked to be holding true to what they said they were going to do in regards to ENY's flow and future.
AAG/ENY has done an about-face and returned to their BS and failed promises. Last year I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Wait and see. Things were looking OK, people could start moving up and out. They were holding up their end of the bargain. The actions of the company this year make liars of them. ENY is just another crappy regional at this point, arguably worse than others in some ways. But hey, it's just a transfer to AA, right?
OK Mr./Ms. AAG/ENY PR rep, tell us how AA/ENY are going to surmount these issues while remaining within the bounds of the contract and arbitrated awards? If it were possible, I think we would have been told by now, and it would benefit hiring because people would see that we were moving ahead - but this is not the reality that is presented by ENY. Do tell, cr700, how this will all be made right? I was one of your supporters last year and we've all been let down. Tell me why I'm wrong, point by point.
What? Seriously, WHAT? Out of all the posts I see here this one completely seems like an ENY/AAG PR rep piece. "...reliable feed...career path...positioning envoy to be the premier regional..." All corporate-speak.
I cannot believe what I'm hearing from management, or the previous poster.
All last year, despite the negative Nancys, AAG looked to be holding true to what they said they were going to do in regards to ENY's flow and future.
- They reduced the number of departing aircraft
- Returned some flying with the promise of additional hours returning this spring
- Had a small upgrade with the promise of more to come in rapid succession starting this year
- 2.5 to CA and 6 to flow for the newhire hired TODAY (today being the late summer/fall of last year).
- Despite the devastating effects of shutting down all but two domiciles we got small returns like hotel rooms and an extended commuter policy (still a sh*t deal, but better than nothing)
- Bumped up the flow in accordance with the arrival of the 175
- Failed to gain additional flying
This will be changing in the future heavily slanted in Envoy's favor. AAG has to balance the system when it comes to regional feed and it all depends on the capacity available to them at that particular time.
- Failed to upgrade
Look for an upgrade bid very soon. As you know, as Envoy pilots flow, they have to be replaced. This requires upgrades. - 2.5/6 is essentially impossible. They could hand out AA numbers to us and that still doesn't qualify as flowing - we are supposed to get 50% of EACH CLASS, not 100% into a pool. Unless there's some miracle in the works there's no way to cram the full required flow through the AA training center (Due to Letter T returnees, July slowdown and December shutdown of the AA training facility for newhires) much less our own training center to meet the upgrade target.
They are following the contract. The 2.5/6 is based on the MINIMUM flowing which in the most recent case is, 30. - Metered the flow to less than 50% with the unfathomable excuse that the departure of the pilots would disrupt operations despite having zero time and part time lines, line values sub-70 hour average along with 35%+ of the pilot group on reserve. Bull ****
Metering is allowed by the contract even for forseeable future events. It's likely that when the 175 flying spools up, they are seeing a greater need for qualified pilots in those seats. - Returning Letter T pilots may/may not make "truing up" flows at the end of the year per our contract physically impossible
Letter T pilots will be making their decision in April. Then we will know how many will be coming back. The company has to true up at the end of the year. It's contractual.
AAG/ENY has done an about-face and returned to their BS and failed promises. Last year I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Wait and see. Things were looking OK, people could start moving up and out. They were holding up their end of the bargain. The actions of the company this year make liars of them. ENY is just another crappy regional at this point, arguably worse than others in some ways. But hey, it's just a transfer to AA, right?
OK Mr./Ms. AAG/ENY PR rep, tell us how AA/ENY are going to surmount these issues while remaining within the bounds of the contract and arbitrated awards? If it were possible, I think we would have been told by now, and it would benefit hiring because people would see that we were moving ahead - but this is not the reality that is presented by ENY. Do tell, cr700, how this will all be made right? I was one of your supporters last year and we've all been let down. Tell me why I'm wrong, point by point.
We have some of the best work rules in the industry. Envoy isn't a bad place to be while you wait for your move over to AA. Envoy is moving ahead and very soon it will be at lightning speed. Anyone considering Envoy will want to get their apps in now to be on the front end of the wave. Yes, it's still a great time to be an Envoy pilot.
02-18-2016, 07:01 AM
#1185
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: EMB '75
Posts: 19
I'm pretty sure that is just for the inital test cadre of pilots. Cause we've never used EFB's before, so we better run a test program????The rest of us will have them mailed to our homes on March,...errr, beginning of April now. Typing up with the 1 page agreement that you will be required to sign with the Do's and Don't's has taken Ric longer than expected. Please cut him some slack, he's just now learning how to use the return/shift key to start a new line on text. His hi6's won't go on forever now!
02-18-2016, 07:08 AM
#1186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
Posts: 771
02-18-2016, 07:10 AM
#1187
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
Posts: 771
I keep thinking they are kicking the can (one of their specialties) until later this year when they are freed up from constraints regarding the last of their synergy components like SLI, "rightsizing" hubs, pilots PBS, etc. at mainline. This will play directly into what they want/need to do with their regional network, which again IMO involves streamlining, consolidation or even possibly branching out into a different reality to some degree with larger aircraft (possible with the correct chess play).
Until then, it would seem to make little sense in big moves and instead simply a enabling process of band-aiding the operation until THEY are ready to make the moves I suspect are being finalized about several issues. I think some surprises are coming starting in mid Summer into the end of the year.
Just my .02 as always............
Until then, it would seem to make little sense in big moves and instead simply a enabling process of band-aiding the operation until THEY are ready to make the moves I suspect are being finalized about several issues. I think some surprises are coming starting in mid Summer into the end of the year.
Just my .02 as always............
02-18-2016, 07:12 AM
#1188
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I think it's pretty obvious that you've got an axe to grind with Envoy. Seriously, are you upset that it took you 20 years to flow? Most guys flowing now will be in their early 30's, some may even been in their late 20's with the 6 year flow, giving them a full career span at the premier major carrier in the U.S. Maybe that is what's giving you heartburn, I don't know.
What I do know is that AAG has recognized the need for reliable feed and believes that keeping it in house is the best way to give pilots what they want. A career path from Day One. Envoy management isn't "out to get the pilot group." They are in fact, trying to help facilitate a pilots career expectation by offering them a clear, and very brief path to AA.
Try to remember, this isn't AMR anymore. It's AAG and with that comes a whole different executive management team. One that literally does what they say they are going to do. If it weren't for AAG, Envoy wouldn't have the robust flow that we have today.
In addition, AAG is positioning Envoy to be the premier regional carrier in the U.S. We'll likely be operating all 175's within 5 years or less. Kind of beats those crappy, loud 19 seat turboprops you were probably flying back in the 80's.
Envoy guys just need to be patient and let AAG's plan start working. It already is in fact. 30 Envoy pilots recently just transferred to AA with no interview and no new hire process. Just a transfer. Being wholly owned, you are already part of American Airlines and it's just like moving from the CRJ over to the 175. Just a transfer.
What I do know is that AAG has recognized the need for reliable feed and believes that keeping it in house is the best way to give pilots what they want. A career path from Day One. Envoy management isn't "out to get the pilot group." They are in fact, trying to help facilitate a pilots career expectation by offering them a clear, and very brief path to AA.
Try to remember, this isn't AMR anymore. It's AAG and with that comes a whole different executive management team. One that literally does what they say they are going to do. If it weren't for AAG, Envoy wouldn't have the robust flow that we have today.
In addition, AAG is positioning Envoy to be the premier regional carrier in the U.S. We'll likely be operating all 175's within 5 years or less. Kind of beats those crappy, loud 19 seat turboprops you were probably flying back in the 80's.
Envoy guys just need to be patient and let AAG's plan start working. It already is in fact. 30 Envoy pilots recently just transferred to AA with no interview and no new hire process. Just a transfer. Being wholly owned, you are already part of American Airlines and it's just like moving from the CRJ over to the 175. Just a transfer.
NEITHER situation changes the fact that the promises made regarding 2.5/6 (or better) which you have joined in selling are anything remotely dependable or accurate. The math simply doesn't add up. That is becoming more clear by the day. You can continually pull the string in your back about 30 flows last month, but that means nothing regarding the future. I think it's also painfully obvious the present management there thinks very little of their pilots by virtue of making a mockery of the very contract they themselves agreed to and what message does that send to those there or not yet there about the future ?
As for the flow, your claims are bunk. The fact is that regardless of the management teams in place, what is occurring now is a requirement based on an arbitral award and they are now sharpshooting that to bare minimum benefit to Envoy pilots and most importantly to note it is being done, WHEN IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE and again what message does THAT send to present and future pilots ?
I don't think you are aware of just how ridiculous you look coming on here within the last week or so as though you are trying something new. The fact is several there have done this before for months now, but it appears at least most of them are starting to get it too. What either of us say here won't change the situation either way at Envoy as that will be a result both of other forces that cannot be altered like the near dry supply of entry-level Regional pilots and the undeniable fact of just how Envoy pilots are treated there which is abundantly obvious based on the very pilots themselves essentially saying life at this carrier has never been worse. At least that's the message I get. It's the message getting out there by many or even most present Envoy pilots. If your management truly wanted to make an honest effort to maximize their future situation, they'd start living up to their contractual agreements and negotiate mutually acceptable changes with a different attitude that they have. This carriers reputation is not based on what is said from those that do not work there, but those that do and unless and until THAT changes, Envoy's name will be mud, at least IMO and that has nothing to do with me or anyone's ax from the outside.
You broke it, you fix it and if not, then expect a predictable future.
02-18-2016, 07:15 AM
#1189
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
02-18-2016, 07:27 AM
#1190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
I've been accused of being an ax grinder before both against Envoy and/or their present pilots. I'm neither. I think present Envoy pilots deserve far better then the same old B.S. of the past, but all I've seen IS the same old B.S. of the past perpetually reconstituted. All I've done here is wave a flag at what I see as B.S. against those trying to sell that as righteous truth to the unwitting or "something new". Fact is, if I truly had an ax to grind against your carrier, I'd preach not going there under ANY circumstances or leaving for ANYTHING else. I don't believe either to be the case. For some, even with Envoy's situation, it might be one of the better choices to consider as a future stop. For some there, I understand many are simply too committed to move laterally and thus unless a decent LCC or legacy calls, they're along for the ride.
NEITHER situation changes the fact that the promises made regarding 2.5/6 (or better) which you have joined in selling are anything remotely dependable or accurate. The math simply doesn't add up. That is becoming more clear by the day. You can continually pull the string in your back about 30 flows last month, but that means nothing regarding the future. I think it's also painfully obvious the present management there thinks very little of their pilots by virtue of making a mockery of the very contract they themselves agreed to and what message does that send to those there or not yet there about the future ?
As for the flow, your claims are bunk. The fact is that regardless of the management teams in place, what is occurring now is a requirement based on an arbitral award and they are now sharpshooting that to bare minimum benefit to Envoy pilots and most importantly to note it is being done, WHEN IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE and again what message does THAT send to present and future pilots ?
I don't think you are aware of just how ridiculous you look coming on here within the last week or so as though you are trying something new. The fact is several there have done this before for months now, but it appears at least most of them are starting to get it too. What either of us say here won't change the situation either way at Envoy as that will be a result both of other forces that cannot be altered like the near dry supply of entry-level Regional pilots and the undeniable fact of just how Envoy pilots are treated there which is abundantly obvious based on the very pilots themselves essentially saying life at this carrier has never been worse. At least that's the message I get. It's the message getting out there by many or even most present Envoy pilots. If your management truly wanted to make an honest effort to maximize their future situation, they'd start living up to their contractual agreements and negotiate mutually acceptable changes with a different attitude that they have. This carriers reputation is not based on what is said from those that do not work there, but those that do and unless and until THAT changes, Envoy's name will be mud, at least IMO and that has nothing to do with me or anyone's ax from the outside.
You broke it, you fix it and if not, then expect a predictable future.
NEITHER situation changes the fact that the promises made regarding 2.5/6 (or better) which you have joined in selling are anything remotely dependable or accurate. The math simply doesn't add up. That is becoming more clear by the day. You can continually pull the string in your back about 30 flows last month, but that means nothing regarding the future. I think it's also painfully obvious the present management there thinks very little of their pilots by virtue of making a mockery of the very contract they themselves agreed to and what message does that send to those there or not yet there about the future ?
As for the flow, your claims are bunk. The fact is that regardless of the management teams in place, what is occurring now is a requirement based on an arbitral award and they are now sharpshooting that to bare minimum benefit to Envoy pilots and most importantly to note it is being done, WHEN IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE and again what message does THAT send to present and future pilots ?
I don't think you are aware of just how ridiculous you look coming on here within the last week or so as though you are trying something new. The fact is several there have done this before for months now, but it appears at least most of them are starting to get it too. What either of us say here won't change the situation either way at Envoy as that will be a result both of other forces that cannot be altered like the near dry supply of entry-level Regional pilots and the undeniable fact of just how Envoy pilots are treated there which is abundantly obvious based on the very pilots themselves essentially saying life at this carrier has never been worse. At least that's the message I get. It's the message getting out there by many or even most present Envoy pilots. If your management truly wanted to make an honest effort to maximize their future situation, they'd start living up to their contractual agreements and negotiate mutually acceptable changes with a different attitude that they have. This carriers reputation is not based on what is said from those that do not work there, but those that do and unless and until THAT changes, Envoy's name will be mud, at least IMO and that has nothing to do with me or anyone's ax from the outside.
You broke it, you fix it and if not, then expect a predictable future.
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