More great news at Envoy!
09-17-2014, 09:30 PM
#301
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
No regional has any leverage at all. Even with this "shortage" regional pilots are still in a take it or leave it position. Regionals are going to shrink faster than mainline is going to hire so there will still be enough pilots to cover the schedule for at least 5 more years. The only group with leverage with regards to raising regional pay is the mainline unions and I do not expect them to use any negotiating capital attempting to do so. Ten years from now may be a different story but this mythical leverage does not exist. Even if PSA and PDT said no the planes would just go to Mesa, Republic, and GoJet which already have low cost CBAs and yes they would be staffed just fine. You guys are living in a dream world where everyone says no and then magically we all get a 50% raise, it is not going to happen and ALPA national knows this. Unfortunately some individual MECs do not quite understand.
Why believe anything and everything management tells you, especially when they're trying to get you to take concessions? Mesa can barely keep up with the growth already being thrown at them(they're doing phone interviews/class date assignments). Republic is ending their 50 seat flying to try and staff the 175 flying. Gojets is offering signing bonuses and the new hires have slowed to a trickle. IF, PSA and PDT had joined Expressjet, Silver, Republic, and Envoy in voting NO, management would have had NO other choice but to come back with a better offer.
09-17-2014, 09:40 PM
#302
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Of course they all use F&H. They would be foolish not to.
That doesn't change the fact that the negotiating landscape at regionals and majors are totally different.
"vote this in or we shut you down" is not a valid threat at DAL/UAL/AAG/Blue/etc, etc. A Delta Airlines flight on Delta Airlines metal will be flown by a Delta Airlines pilot, period.
At a wholly owned, not only is it a credible threat but it is also completely in their power to act out as evidenced at least in part by the 47 700s moving from Eagle. PSA's total fleet previously was only 49 acft, PDTs I think is something like 38.
In the current environment mainline unions are flush with some pretty good negotiating capital. There will always be a little give and take with new contracts, thats why it's called "negotiating." Rest assured though that mainline contracts will see good gains in the near future. Hopefully it doesn't come at the cost of further scope erosion. That same scope that is giving them the leverage in the first place. I am optimistic this is not the case because I believe that mainline pilots have "seen the light" that scope is a major issue to their personal job security. As long as the current scope clauses become the new stopping point regional negotiations will remain regional negotiations. Nothing will be "following" anyone to mainline.
You guys made a calculated gamble based on some (probably) incorrect information that unfortunately proved to be the wrong move. However, Eagle's situation right now is in no way a microcosm of upcoming legacy contract negotiations.
That doesn't change the fact that the negotiating landscape at regionals and majors are totally different.
"vote this in or we shut you down" is not a valid threat at DAL/UAL/AAG/Blue/etc, etc. A Delta Airlines flight on Delta Airlines metal will be flown by a Delta Airlines pilot, period.
At a wholly owned, not only is it a credible threat but it is also completely in their power to act out as evidenced at least in part by the 47 700s moving from Eagle. PSA's total fleet previously was only 49 acft, PDTs I think is something like 38.
In the current environment mainline unions are flush with some pretty good negotiating capital. There will always be a little give and take with new contracts, thats why it's called "negotiating." Rest assured though that mainline contracts will see good gains in the near future. Hopefully it doesn't come at the cost of further scope erosion. That same scope that is giving them the leverage in the first place. I am optimistic this is not the case because I believe that mainline pilots have "seen the light" that scope is a major issue to their personal job security. As long as the current scope clauses become the new stopping point regional negotiations will remain regional negotiations. Nothing will be "following" anyone to mainline.
You guys made a calculated gamble based on some (probably) incorrect information that unfortunately proved to be the wrong move. However, Eagle's situation right now is in no way a microcosm of upcoming legacy contract negotiations.
According to your own "statistics", that's a total of 87 aircraft, plus all the new 175's and 900's that AA needs to keep flying for their feed. IF PSA and PDT had voted NO, joining Expressjet, Envoy, Silver and Republic in doing so, management would not have been able to place all 87 A/C PSA and PDT currently fly along all the future A/C deliveries with any other carriers. There just isn't enough slack in the regional system anymore, pretty much every carrier than can find new hires is already running at maximum capacity with available classrooms and sims.
09-17-2014, 10:16 PM
#303
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Left
Posts: 1,809
According to your own "statistics", that's a total of 87 aircraft, plus all the new 175's and 900's that AA needs to keep flying for their feed. IF PSA and PDT had voted NO, joining Expressjet, Envoy, Silver and Republic in doing so, management would not have been able to place all 87 A/C PSA and PDT currently fly along all the future A/C deliveries with any other carriers. There just isn't enough slack in the regional system anymore, pretty much every carrier than can find new hires is already running at maximum capacity with available classrooms and sims.
As far as the 87 A/C, that number is not correct because those groups did not vote at the same time. If PSA had voted no a year ago AAG would've only had to shift 49 acft. They have proven themselves capable of doing this with the Eagle 700 transfer. Mesa would've had no problem staffing those 49 acft plus the 30 900s as proven by PSA's recent recruiting success staffing the mentioned 30 900s plus Eagle's ill gotten 700s.
Your union has (incorrectly) convinced your pilot group that regionals cannot staff their flying. Fact is that people will flock to an airline that is growing in the hope of a fast upgrade/flow. Think what you want about the morality behind that situation but that doesn't change the fact that it is reality right now.
Lastly, AAG has known for quite a while that PDT's Dash 8s were going to time out. To think this was not in their business plan is folly. PDT was in an even more difficult position than PSA due to the fact that their acft could not legally be operated past 2017ish.
09-18-2014, 08:48 AM
#304
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 49
First of all XJT, Silver, and Republic cannot be grouped with Eagle, PDT, and PSA because they are not wholly owned. Their no votes were a lot easier to cast than Eagle, PDT, PSA. If you do not understand the reason behind this then we do not need to be having this conversation in the first place.
As far as the 87 A/C, that number is not correct because those groups did not vote at the same time. If PSA had voted no a year ago AAG would've only had to shift 49 acft. They have proven themselves capable of doing this with the Eagle 700 transfer. Mesa would've had no problem staffing those 49 acft plus the 30 900s as proven by PSA's recent recruiting success staffing the mentioned 30 900s plus Eagle's ill gotten 700s.
Your union has (incorrectly) convinced your pilot group that regionals cannot staff their flying. Fact is that people will flock to an airline that is growing in the hope of a fast upgrade/flow. Think what you want about the morality behind that situation but that doesn't change the fact that it is reality right now.
Lastly, AAG has known for quite a while that PDT's Dash 8s were going to time out. To think this was not in their business plan is folly. PDT was in an even more difficult position than PSA due to the fact that their acft could not legally be operated past 2017ish.
As far as the 87 A/C, that number is not correct because those groups did not vote at the same time. If PSA had voted no a year ago AAG would've only had to shift 49 acft. They have proven themselves capable of doing this with the Eagle 700 transfer. Mesa would've had no problem staffing those 49 acft plus the 30 900s as proven by PSA's recent recruiting success staffing the mentioned 30 900s plus Eagle's ill gotten 700s.
Your union has (incorrectly) convinced your pilot group that regionals cannot staff their flying. Fact is that people will flock to an airline that is growing in the hope of a fast upgrade/flow. Think what you want about the morality behind that situation but that doesn't change the fact that it is reality right now.
Lastly, AAG has known for quite a while that PDT's Dash 8s were going to time out. To think this was not in their business plan is folly. PDT was in an even more difficult position than PSA due to the fact that their acft could not legally be operated past 2017ish.
They had no data, they used assumptions and hearsay while they had hoped for something better; however, they were wrong. The last deal was blocked by Ray Igou by telling the company what the bottom line was. I'm not advocating for concessions anywhere but pilots need to know why we are here and who put us here. Today I can certainly say that we are in way worse shape than when we were in bankruptcy. (Looking ahead to Low time lines = concessions, airplanes gone = payband gone, more concessions. PBS no or yes we will have more concessions....)
I hope new elections in Miami and New York will get rid of the guys that have mislead us down the path of self-destruction. They are Ok with burning the place down so they can say that at least they tried. We need smart level headed individuals that care about the pilot group and at the same time have everything to lose.
Ones that reach out and inform unbiasedly the pilot group they represent.
09-18-2014, 09:09 AM
#306
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 255
47 CRJ700 x 8.5 Pilots per plane (im being conservative)= 400 pilots in the next 2.5 years.
Flow through: (metered currently) is 20 a month over to AA = 600 pilots over the next 2.5 years.
Attrition: I've heard a lot of different numbers, lets go WAY conservative at say 10 per month. 300 over the next 2.5 years. (will increase as majors hire more)
Some simple math 900 pilots gone for the 400 CRJ pilots, thats minus 500 over the next 2.5 years.
While these numbers are very general and don't take into account the parking of the 140's, (because the company keeps changing its mind on the matter ie:rate of return and how many), and the return of block hours (because they won't tell us how many) due to lack of staffing, it gives you an idea why Eagle will ALWAYS be hiring.
Short answer, because they can't get enough people to stay here.
09-18-2014, 09:18 AM
#307
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
Posts: 771
Union rep told me we have 165 airplanes with staffing to cover 157. Not that the union's ever been wrong and way off before. But yeah, people are bailing left and right. About 50ish a month with the 824. You'd be an idiot to come here!
09-18-2014, 09:29 AM
#308
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: doggy style
Posts: 1,006
I hope new elections in Miami and New York will get rid of the guys that have mislead us down the path of self-destruction. They are Ok with burning the place down so they can say that at least they tried. We need smart level headed individuals that care about the pilot group and at the same time have everything to lose.
Ones that reach out and inform unbiasedly the pilot group they represent.
Ones that reach out and inform unbiasedly the pilot group they represent.
You instead want to elect people who will ignore their constituents and be the "mommy knows best" kind of leader.
09-18-2014, 09:59 AM
#309
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 490
It wasn't the union because Alpa National had disagreed with the MEC from the beginning of negotiations with AAG. It was our MEC: Ray Igou(aka cujo665 mason32 and who knows who else) FO Val AA Jester, FO Kelly Frontier Paul, Sam Pool and soon to be FO Bill AA Sprague, FO Krutenant and FO John Gardner that told pilots that nobody could staff this jets anywhere.
They had no data, they used assumptions and hearsay while they had hoped for something better; however, they were wrong. The last deal was blocked by Ray Igou by telling the company what the bottom line was. I'm not advocating for concessions anywhere but pilots need to know why we are here and who put us here. Today I can certainly say that we are in way worse shape than when we were in bankruptcy. (Looking ahead to Low time lines = concessions, airplanes gone = payband gone, more concessions. PBS no or yes we will have more concessions....)
I hope new elections in Miami and New York will get rid of the guys that have mislead us down the path of self-destruction. They are Ok with burning the place down so they can say that at least they tried. We need smart level headed individuals that care about the pilot group and at the same time have everything to lose.
Ones that reach out and inform unbiasedly the pilot group they represent.
They had no data, they used assumptions and hearsay while they had hoped for something better; however, they were wrong. The last deal was blocked by Ray Igou by telling the company what the bottom line was. I'm not advocating for concessions anywhere but pilots need to know why we are here and who put us here. Today I can certainly say that we are in way worse shape than when we were in bankruptcy. (Looking ahead to Low time lines = concessions, airplanes gone = payband gone, more concessions. PBS no or yes we will have more concessions....)
I hope new elections in Miami and New York will get rid of the guys that have mislead us down the path of self-destruction. They are Ok with burning the place down so they can say that at least they tried. We need smart level headed individuals that care about the pilot group and at the same time have everything to lose.
Ones that reach out and inform unbiasedly the pilot group they represent.
09-18-2014, 10:02 AM
#310
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 49
For the record I don't regret anything. I'm glad we got to vote but to say that the system worked is a stretch. We voted thinking that the reps and the information coming from them was correct we now know that they were wrong.
No one wants concessions that is Crystal Clear; however, the day PSA said YES we were done. Saying NO only works if not a single pilot plays management games. The sad story is that pilots will chase the quick upgrades and nice shiny jets. Concessions will come now at the price of displacements and downgrades don't be mistaken.
If you don't believe me then look at the pilots at PSA celebrating the future loss of the CRJs at eagle.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
