Peoplemvr

Everyone is addressing the loss of one week=17 days vaca with line bidding.
But no one addressing the mini vacas that you can have every month during transition, if you do it right.
Not with PBS.

Old Dude

The pay rates have no connection whatsoever to PBS ratification, and are subject to revert to Green Book after 2025

Old Dude

It is true that other airlines use NavBlue, however it works differently at each and every airline. If it passes, our version of NavBlue will have to be written in accordance with the contractual language. NavBlue is a very capable system, but it will be limited by our contract language.

Old Dude

Let me say a word or two to the industry newcomers. I congratulate you on your rapid progress.
As you may have noticed, the things are slowing down, the airlines stopped hiring, some may furlough, some may go out of business. Last time AA furloughed pilots for a period of over a decade. That's right the pilots were out for over 10 years before they were recalled. If you think that passing this current PSB will not hurt so bad, imagine if you will, having to spend 5 or may be 10 years at this airline.

BigZ

Gloom and doom aside, here's the bottom line - it isn't 2013 when the pilots "decided against this system". PBS is coming and you're voting on whether you're ok with the negotiated language, or not.
I'll answer the question you asked during the call - what's to prevent the company from building pairings so bad, that you'll be working down to min days off.
Money. If ratified, the LOA 22-04 stays, so minimum 12 days off and trip rig stay.
So to build trips so inefficient, that you end up working to min days off, you'll need to fly 31-12=19 days on 31 day month and 30-12=18 days on 30 day month.
That's 4x4days + 3day and 4x4days + 2day respectively. Average 4 day is what, 76 hrs TAFB? 3day is about 52 and 2 day is 28 hrs. Assuming the trips are so bad that you still only fly 72 hrs.
Your TAFB would be 4x76 + 52 or 4x76 + 28, which is 356 or 332 hrs. With trip rig that's 89 and 83 hrs of pay respectively for 72 hrs of flying. So no, I don't think the company will be working you to min days off just because they like having you at work so much.
Feel free to cherry pick the high productivity trips with your seniority.
Yes, when properly applied DTS is gold and I use it as such too. The average DTS numbers on the union slide are... pedestrian at best, but they are what they are.
Bottom line, monthly schedules will be better for the senior pilots, worse for the junior pilots, and about the same for those in the middle with probably some added flexibility on getting the particular days off.
And yes, the trade off is the ability to wipe the month clean with vacation DTS.
I have my own concerns about it, but please lay off the "PBS vs no PBS". It is "PBS on these terms vs PBS on some other terms, likely whatever is arbitrated".

Old Dude

"Doom and gloom aside" is like starring at a locomotive coming at you and doing nothing. Any labor attorney worth his/hers keep will tell you that this is the worst possible time to negotiate. Spirit may be facing bankruptcy, Jet Blue is offering early outs. No one is hiring. We are offering time off, without pay. And what happens if they don't get enough volunteers? Furlough!
"Feel free to cherry pick the high productivity trips" . Are you serious. Isn't the whole purpose of the PBS to simplify bidding? How many sequences do we have in a large base? Thousands, is this even humanly possible to sort thru that many every single month. For some of us who use Quickbid and know the Manual Sorting option, it will be just like that, just imagine manually sorting thru thousands of lines. Get the idea. Now, if we controlled building of the pairings, we then would have a true user friendly system where the pilot is in control.
Speaking of control, we relinquish all control to the company. Did you know that the company will decide if you get special qualifications training to fly to specialty airports? Dominica is one of those airports. You have to have flown there within past year or qualified with a check airman. With the new PBS contract this too will be decided by the company.

BigZ

Exactly why I think the current offering is "good enough". And yes, I also DTS the crap out of my vacations.
Yes, I am serious and no, I didn't mean go through them manually. You know how we have lines with three 20 hr 4 day trips and a 12 hr 4 day trip? In PBS you can tell the system you are only interested in 24+ hr 4 day trips. If, out of all those sequences, there are three that it can make you a schedule out of, that's what you're gonna get - 3x24=72 hrs. Those sequences exist, but they are sprinkled all over the lines with low credit sequences mixed in. PBS will let you "cherry pick" those if their are your thing - provided you have the seniority, which you do.
We don't and we won't, so I see no point talking about it much. Also I might "cherry pick" the legs for my convenience, you - but can you imagine trying to make 2200 or whatever we have right now pilots happy? And the junior guys would be doing what, ORD-IND/DFW-ACT five times a day? They'd get really good at landings eventually.
Dominica so far is the only one we have with special quals like that- and? We already had something similar with Canada trips and vaccines. It was up to you to do what you can to not bid Canada if unvaccinated, if you still got it it dropped unpaid - different story, same general idea.
Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But thats the best our negotiating committee could get for us at this time. And the loccomotive is coming whether you want it to or not - you can jump right, where there's a vending machine and a drinking fountain of questionable cleanliness, or jump left, where you can see nothing but the bushes.
My base rep has an eye twitch by now from dealing with my questions, but I'm jumping right. Don't want to have to find out what kind of bear crap is in those bushes on the left.

Old Dude

In terms of the cumulative effect our decisions make in the whole of the aviation community, is this a good thing? Have you ever wondered while speaking to another pilot from a major airline and they find out that you fly for a regional, and all of a sudden there is a gust of cold air? Why do you think this is? We all fly high technology aircraft that move at an equivalent speed.
It's because of this, it's because we settle for concessionary contracts. Do you think that this only affects us? Pilots are quick to jump ship in order to get a better contract, yes getting a good contract is hard work and may take years. But with a "good enough" mentality we only have ourselves to blame.

BigZ

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I belive Southwest is the only other airline to have line bidding with dts. Alaska line bids and they can drop touching sequences, but have to pick up back to 75 hrs or some such, so it doesn't count. What were DAL/UAL/AA thinking when they went to PBS??
No, not really.
Misdirected anger? I wasn't the one to pi$$ away their scope.
Here's the thing - go search for PBS in enycba.alpa.org
You agreed to it in 2013, then you agreed to it in 2015, and now you're complaining that it's coming in 2025. This isn't "years" somehow?
Moreover, probationary pilots don't get to vote on it at all, and it will affect their stay at Envoy for longer, than it will affect you before retirement.

ClappedOut145

The LOA has been ratified. Now the fun part begins.