History of the Airline for the New Guys
07-14-2019, 09:35 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,255
This is a brief outline of how history has unfolded at this airline over the past decade. I am 100% sure I’m leaving tidbits out and probably messing things up as I’m going primarily off of memory…So those of you that have been here longer than the Envoy days, please chime in.
Let’s go back to 2010. American Eagle begins hiring again for the first time since 2008. American Eagle is the sole wholly owned regional airline under the AMR corporation (what is today’s AAG) for American Airlines with more than 3,000 pilots. American Eagle operates over 90% of all regional flying for American Airlines with the small remaining amount of regional flying being operated by Chautauqua Airlines and Trans States Airlines out of ORD under the American Connection name. American Eagle operates coast to coast out of several domiciles including LAX, DFW, MIA, JFK, LGA, SJU, and ORD. BOS was also a domicile up until its closing less than 2 years prior in 2008.
AMR expressed a desire to divest, or spinoff, American Eagle. Meaning, they wanted to sell the airline and not own a regional airline anymore. Over the next couple of years American Eagle continued to hire heavily at the same time participating in negotiations on how a divesture would be carried out and handled. Everything came to a screeching halt in the fall of 2011. AMR announced that it would be filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. American Eagle then immediately stopped hiring and even ended up furloughing 60+ pilots.
At this point in bankruptcy, American Eagle pilots and ALPA faced 2 avenues. One would mean negotiating a bankruptcy concessionary contract with the Company OR proceeding with a Section 1113 hearing. The latter basically gives the power to the bankruptcy judge to decide which cuts and the value of said cuts on which the pilot group would take. Ultimately in an effort to keep the decision out of a bankruptcy Judge’s hands, the American Eagle ALPA Negotiating Committee negotiated an AIP which was subsequently passed as a TA and ratified by the pilot group as a $43 million concessionary contract. In 2012 pilot group begrudgingly accepted these concessions during bankruptcy in a hope avoid greater concessions from a judge and to move past this.
Fast forward to 2013. Us Airways Group and AMR announced that they would be merging. Us Airways brought along with it approximately 10 regional airlines between its two wholly owned carriers and contract carriers. The ink had barely dried on the American Eagle concessionary bankruptcy contract that was recently signed and the new AAG management demanded a second round of concessions due to the fact that its current regional carriers costs were substantially lower.
The American Eagle pilot group was obviously livid about this demand for two reasons. It had just accepted a round of concessions in bankruptcy and the new ATP requirements for pilot positions were obviously putting pilot candidates at a premium. ALPA regional carriers across the country signed a pact to vote no to any sort of concessions presented to each respective carrier going forth. All ALPA regional carriers signed this pact to vote no to concessions, except one: PSA. Many put their money where their mouths were. Expressjet voted no to concessions, Eagle voted no to concessions, Republic (while not technically an ALPA carrier) voted no to concessions. Airline management groups were desperately trying to get concessions and lock in low rates before the pilot shortage really gained traction. Initially the American Eagle MEC voted no to concessions. AAG’s lead negotiator, Jerry Glass, vowed to Comair II American Eagle if concessions were not accepted by the Eagle pilot group. This was in reference to Delta shutting down its regional carrier, Comair. AAG and Eagle management put pressure on the MEC to allow the pilot group to vote on the measure. Reluctantly, the MEC did present concessions to a pilot vote. The pilot group collectively voted no to any sort of further concessions.
AAG did not take kindly to this. Scott Kirby, President of AAG at the time, took this particularity personally. The journey to shutdown American Eagle was about to begin. AAG found a taker to accept concessions, PSA. The one single ALPA carrier that refused to sign the pact to accept no concessions. That airline took concessions and AAG placed a large order of CRJ 900s at PSA. In addition, AAG ordered the transfer of all CRJ 700s from American Eagle to PSA. AAG then began transferring Embraer 145s from American Eagle to Expressjet and Trans States. Furthermore, AAG decided to place the first 20 orders of Embraer 175 aircraft that were slated to go to American Eagle to Compass Airlines.
It was clear that AAG was doing everything in its power to be rid of American Eagle. In the process, the pilot group shrunk from 3,000+ to approximately 1,500 pilots. In a last ditch effort presented from management to the MEC, one last concessionary deal was offered up to the pilot group to vote on. The pilot group reluctantly voted it in. American Eagle would soon be Envoy Air in late 2014.
Over the following year or two, other regionals started raising their pay rates and benefits and began to flourish. AAG had felt good about locking in poverty level pay rates in exchange for a flow carrot. It was a failed experiment. After chasing away over 1,500 pilots from Envoy by demanding cuts, AAG realized that business plan was unsustainable. Prospective new hires began flocking to the likes of Endeavor, Republic and other airlines with higher pay rates. Shortly after, AAG WOs raised first year FO pay along with high FO retention bonuses. Fast forward from 2015 until present day, we’ve seen bandaid LOAs, RTP and Cadet programs and other sorts to keep a steady stream of new hires coming in the door. We all know what’s going on with the current negotiations and everything else. But the above should be a graphic illustration to how things change constantly and consistently. Anyone coming here putting all their eggs in the flow basket thinking things are going to stay exactly how they look right now for several years….well, I would think twice about that. The only sure thing about this airline game is that there is no sure thing and everything changes quickly and constantly. Hopefully this sheds a little light on the history of this joint for those of you who are new and don't know everything like dera...
Let’s go back to 2010. American Eagle begins hiring again for the first time since 2008. American Eagle is the sole wholly owned regional airline under the AMR corporation (what is today’s AAG) for American Airlines with more than 3,000 pilots. American Eagle operates over 90% of all regional flying for American Airlines with the small remaining amount of regional flying being operated by Chautauqua Airlines and Trans States Airlines out of ORD under the American Connection name. American Eagle operates coast to coast out of several domiciles including LAX, DFW, MIA, JFK, LGA, SJU, and ORD. BOS was also a domicile up until its closing less than 2 years prior in 2008.
AMR expressed a desire to divest, or spinoff, American Eagle. Meaning, they wanted to sell the airline and not own a regional airline anymore. Over the next couple of years American Eagle continued to hire heavily at the same time participating in negotiations on how a divesture would be carried out and handled. Everything came to a screeching halt in the fall of 2011. AMR announced that it would be filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. American Eagle then immediately stopped hiring and even ended up furloughing 60+ pilots.
At this point in bankruptcy, American Eagle pilots and ALPA faced 2 avenues. One would mean negotiating a bankruptcy concessionary contract with the Company OR proceeding with a Section 1113 hearing. The latter basically gives the power to the bankruptcy judge to decide which cuts and the value of said cuts on which the pilot group would take. Ultimately in an effort to keep the decision out of a bankruptcy Judge’s hands, the American Eagle ALPA Negotiating Committee negotiated an AIP which was subsequently passed as a TA and ratified by the pilot group as a $43 million concessionary contract. In 2012 pilot group begrudgingly accepted these concessions during bankruptcy in a hope avoid greater concessions from a judge and to move past this.
Fast forward to 2013. Us Airways Group and AMR announced that they would be merging. Us Airways brought along with it approximately 10 regional airlines between its two wholly owned carriers and contract carriers. The ink had barely dried on the American Eagle concessionary bankruptcy contract that was recently signed and the new AAG management demanded a second round of concessions due to the fact that its current regional carriers costs were substantially lower.
The American Eagle pilot group was obviously livid about this demand for two reasons. It had just accepted a round of concessions in bankruptcy and the new ATP requirements for pilot positions were obviously putting pilot candidates at a premium. ALPA regional carriers across the country signed a pact to vote no to any sort of concessions presented to each respective carrier going forth. All ALPA regional carriers signed this pact to vote no to concessions, except one: PSA. Many put their money where their mouths were. Expressjet voted no to concessions, Eagle voted no to concessions, Republic (while not technically an ALPA carrier) voted no to concessions. Airline management groups were desperately trying to get concessions and lock in low rates before the pilot shortage really gained traction. Initially the American Eagle MEC voted no to concessions. AAG’s lead negotiator, Jerry Glass, vowed to Comair II American Eagle if concessions were not accepted by the Eagle pilot group. This was in reference to Delta shutting down its regional carrier, Comair. AAG and Eagle management put pressure on the MEC to allow the pilot group to vote on the measure. Reluctantly, the MEC did present concessions to a pilot vote. The pilot group collectively voted no to any sort of further concessions.
AAG did not take kindly to this. Scott Kirby, President of AAG at the time, took this particularity personally. The journey to shutdown American Eagle was about to begin. AAG found a taker to accept concessions, PSA. The one single ALPA carrier that refused to sign the pact to accept no concessions. That airline took concessions and AAG placed a large order of CRJ 900s at PSA. In addition, AAG ordered the transfer of all CRJ 700s from American Eagle to PSA. AAG then began transferring Embraer 145s from American Eagle to Expressjet and Trans States. Furthermore, AAG decided to place the first 20 orders of Embraer 175 aircraft that were slated to go to American Eagle to Compass Airlines.
It was clear that AAG was doing everything in its power to be rid of American Eagle. In the process, the pilot group shrunk from 3,000+ to approximately 1,500 pilots. In a last ditch effort presented from management to the MEC, one last concessionary deal was offered up to the pilot group to vote on. The pilot group reluctantly voted it in. American Eagle would soon be Envoy Air in late 2014.
Over the following year or two, other regionals started raising their pay rates and benefits and began to flourish. AAG had felt good about locking in poverty level pay rates in exchange for a flow carrot. It was a failed experiment. After chasing away over 1,500 pilots from Envoy by demanding cuts, AAG realized that business plan was unsustainable. Prospective new hires began flocking to the likes of Endeavor, Republic and other airlines with higher pay rates. Shortly after, AAG WOs raised first year FO pay along with high FO retention bonuses. Fast forward from 2015 until present day, we’ve seen bandaid LOAs, RTP and Cadet programs and other sorts to keep a steady stream of new hires coming in the door. We all know what’s going on with the current negotiations and everything else. But the above should be a graphic illustration to how things change constantly and consistently. Anyone coming here putting all their eggs in the flow basket thinking things are going to stay exactly how they look right now for several years….well, I would think twice about that. The only sure thing about this airline game is that there is no sure thing and everything changes quickly and constantly. Hopefully this sheds a little light on the history of this joint for those of you who are new and don't know everything like dera...
PSA writes to ALPA national to ask their help due to hiring difficulties... so when the CRJ planes transfer from Eagle/Envoy they wanted the pilots transferred to PSA too.
Eagle was “for sale” prior to the 2008 amendment round... and just about every amendment round it was either for sale or being spun off.
The bankruptcy contract promised new larger planes (E175) would come to Eagle in exchange for the concessions in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy was filed November 2011. That deal began negotiations in early 2012 and finished prior to AAG exiting bankruptcy. December 2013 is when management presented their term sheet demands for more concessions. This was 3 months after Pedro Fabregas became Envoy new CEO and 3 months after promising the Envoy MEC in person that great things are coming if we just give him our best performance for the next 90 days. The reward was not the new jets we’d been promised in the bankruptcy deal, it was demands for yet more concessions.
The company began actively harassing pilots more than their historical levels. Calling people in for being out sick, calling guys over fuel use, busting balls on delays, basically nit picking everything...issuing step letters on what used to be coach and counsel events.
They also targeted and harassed employees who dared to speak up, creating a new social media policy to use as a weapon to remove pilots from duty and send them to Dallas for charm school re-education. Even going so far as to repeatedly trump crap up against union leaders who fought them and didn’t play ball. The record was one rep getting fired 7 times, another 3 time, and another twice. They did it to bust balls. Most went back each time and have long since flowed to AA.
You are working for unethical unscrupulous uncaring individuals who will ruin your career rather try to fix whatever systemic issue brought you to their attention in the first place. It’s not their system that’s wrong, it’s you. You’ve got guys like Ric Wilson running things, when every department he touched got wrecked. You’ve got GI Jane running scheduling and it’s her way or the highway. Basically you have an entire management team running an airline that was built long long ago by people much much smarter than these clowns, they’re good enough to oil the machine and add a little grease now and then, but they can’t build a better machine. They just aren’t capable.
07-14-2019, 09:38 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,255
I don't know about being "held up," but the reality is that the pilot group at PSA did have a gun to their head, and begrudgingly made a strategic retreat (the concessionary 900 LOA only passed by 61%). So my beef with Envoy is that it's easy to hide behind the rhetoric of "standing up for the industry" when your job is not the one at stake.
In the end, as of 4/1 Santa Claus showed up and dropped a big win in our laps, but it's also worth noting that our union leadership has been trying to cultivate a good relationship with management for the last few years, after pressuring the company to force out some senior leaders a while back. Now I hear they're working on some middle management...…
The difference between the current state of PSA and Envoy might be more about the differences in DF and PF more than anything else.
Oh, and those dogged out 700s you lost? As I recall yall gave up rights to those in whatever LOA created the "Protected Pilots," i.e. you allowed those 700s to be transferred off the Eagle certificate to the AA certificate in exchange for a mainline job guarantee for everyone on property at the time.
But, fast forward a few years and all those no voters who are still here who railed against the LOA of late 2013 have seen massive increases in pay as the recent pay agreement for PSA included lifting the pay caps for those hired prior to that agreement. In some cases that raise was very near $20/hour. 2013 hires (you know, the ones without a vote in this thing) all flowed in just over 5 years. 2014 hires should all flow in just under 6 according to our union excel dude. Everyone else is now getting paid far and above our supposed virtuous betters at Envoy, and flowing unlike EDV and RAH.
So much for bringing down the industry.
In the end, as of 4/1 Santa Claus showed up and dropped a big win in our laps, but it's also worth noting that our union leadership has been trying to cultivate a good relationship with management for the last few years, after pressuring the company to force out some senior leaders a while back. Now I hear they're working on some middle management...…
The difference between the current state of PSA and Envoy might be more about the differences in DF and PF more than anything else.
Oh, and those dogged out 700s you lost? As I recall yall gave up rights to those in whatever LOA created the "Protected Pilots," i.e. you allowed those 700s to be transferred off the Eagle certificate to the AA certificate in exchange for a mainline job guarantee for everyone on property at the time.
But, fast forward a few years and all those no voters who are still here who railed against the LOA of late 2013 have seen massive increases in pay as the recent pay agreement for PSA included lifting the pay caps for those hired prior to that agreement. In some cases that raise was very near $20/hour. 2013 hires (you know, the ones without a vote in this thing) all flowed in just over 5 years. 2014 hires should all flow in just under 6 according to our union excel dude. Everyone else is now getting paid far and above our supposed virtuous betters at Envoy, and flowing unlike EDV and RAH.
So much for bringing down the industry.
Yet, you come here and tell our pilots you had a gun to your head? What exactly did you lose in your big fight?
07-14-2019, 09:43 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,255
Not sure how PSA hurt the industry considering the pay, QOL, and many other parts of live at PSA are far better than just about anyone else in the industry. (not to mention that everyone that even had a chance to vote on it already flowed to AA except for about 50 "lifers").
It looks like Envoy pilots don't understand negotiating and taking victories when they can get them. Negotiating LOA's and contracts come in many stages, not one massive victory. You will not always get 100% of what you want when negotiating. The trick is to get as much as you can, AND make sure that you are giving up as little as possible.
PSA got SAP in 2013 (which is worth a tremendous amount in terms of QOL), and many other good things (cancellation on leg by leg basis, block or better on a leg by leg basis) in exchange for things that they knew would be fixed later anyways. Fast forward less than 5 years since the contract was signed and all of the so-called concessions (which were just negotiating points, not actually concessions) are gone and PSA is left with what they have now.
PSA is still working on a few things, like improving reserve rules, which the company and Union are working on together, and the Min-Day carveouts and increased flow will be coming soon with the transition to PBS.
Oh, and what about 16% 401k matching while at PSA if the pilots stay until flow as well as sick time buy out contribution to 401K- coming soon to an LOA near you (well, an LOA near you if you work for a company with a base in Dayton).
PSA's current pay raise that they accepted has helped hiring (training department just said that over 80 new pilots in July alone) but it is already diminishing in terms of applicants and interviews. The pay rates alone were not enough as the Union knew that they wouldn't be. They will need to increase flow and make a couple other changes. So, AAG has seen that the pay raises are not going to help long term but PSA pilots are making a lot more money and will continue to do so.
It looks like Envoy pilots don't understand negotiating and taking victories when they can get them. Negotiating LOA's and contracts come in many stages, not one massive victory. You will not always get 100% of what you want when negotiating. The trick is to get as much as you can, AND make sure that you are giving up as little as possible.
PSA got SAP in 2013 (which is worth a tremendous amount in terms of QOL), and many other good things (cancellation on leg by leg basis, block or better on a leg by leg basis) in exchange for things that they knew would be fixed later anyways. Fast forward less than 5 years since the contract was signed and all of the so-called concessions (which were just negotiating points, not actually concessions) are gone and PSA is left with what they have now.
PSA is still working on a few things, like improving reserve rules, which the company and Union are working on together, and the Min-Day carveouts and increased flow will be coming soon with the transition to PBS.
Oh, and what about 16% 401k matching while at PSA if the pilots stay until flow as well as sick time buy out contribution to 401K- coming soon to an LOA near you (well, an LOA near you if you work for a company with a base in Dayton).
PSA's current pay raise that they accepted has helped hiring (training department just said that over 80 new pilots in July alone) but it is already diminishing in terms of applicants and interviews. The pay rates alone were not enough as the Union knew that they wouldn't be. They will need to increase flow and make a couple other changes. So, AAG has seen that the pay raises are not going to help long term but PSA pilots are making a lot more money and will continue to do so.
07-14-2019, 09:49 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 226
Haven't been here since 2013/2014, but long enough to see people will never get over PSA, even those who weren't on property at the time. I think it's time you guys just need to let it go. It's been almost 6 years. Are you going to be talking about it still once you flow to AA as well/leave for a different company? I mean we still have people that have left the company years ago lurking and commenting on threads here and talking negotiations, why? And as it has been said, the majority of the PSA pilots around during this time arent even at the company anymore. I also agree with what has been said about their union having a good relationship with their management making their contract changes and negotiations a less difficult and adversarial process. I'm not taking sides, but it seems like envoy management and union have a long ongoing beef that needs to end. Blaming everything on either side isn't going to help. There is definitely a lot of fault on management here, but when you speak to union reps you can definitely see their hand in this as well. You can't even hint taking less than the AIP withouth them getting PTSD and ranting "we won't take concessions". I'm sorry, but just starting out with the pay raise and grievance settlements, when we our contract isn't even up for amendments, how is that taking a concession? Even on Facebook, you'll see guys question what's going on and if they even give a hint they want to take a slightly different route then the union the reps tear them apart. I get it, they want to settle all the issues we have at once, but showing respect and fixing things one at a time, especially when going all or nothing obviously isn't working, seems like a better option. I've spoken to about 10 P2P reps and they've all mostly agreed with this sentiment as well, but they're not even given more information/have anymore power than a regular line pilot, so it doesn't really matter anyway. Just my 2¢
07-14-2019, 10:44 AM
#26
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Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 429
Yes, all these gains the past 2 years could have happened back in 2013... but you guys validated the whipsaw one last time and delayed all the gains by 5-6 years. But hey, a bunch of senior PSA pukes who never even had any flow got to go to AA ahead of 15 year Eagle guys. Your senior pilots sold out everybody in the industry for personal gain.
Envoy pilots did not take the free money that was being given out a couple months ago...how has that worked out for them? Did they win?
07-14-2019, 10:51 AM
#27
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Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 226
Again, just my 2¢. I'm not a union or management cheerleader, I think there is fault on both ends.
07-14-2019, 12:08 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 226
This. This above is the Envoy mentality, and the reason that Envoy is the way that it is right now. The gains would not have happened in 2013 and PSA would have been shut down. You take as much as you can, when you can, and move on to fight again.
Envoy pilots did not take the free money that was being given out a couple months ago...how has that worked out for them? Did they win?
Envoy pilots did not take the free money that was being given out a couple months ago...how has that worked out for them? Did they win?
07-14-2019, 12:27 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 470
What about going from 3200 pilots to 1500 pilots while voting no to concessions three (3) separate times do you not understand... watching an entire fleet type given away, planes outsourced to vendors, and new E175’s given to Compass
Yet, you come here and tell our pilots you had a gun to your head? What exactly did you lose in your big fight?
Yet, you come here and tell our pilots you had a gun to your head? What exactly did you lose in your big fight?
Oh, and thank you for making my point for me. As I said earlier, PSA made a begrudging strategic retreat, as has reaped the gains every step of the way.
And by the way, Envoy never owned any of that flying. No regional ever has.
Yes, all these gains the past 2 years could have happened back in 2013... but you guys validated the whipsaw one last time and delayed all the gains by 5-6 years. But hey, a bunch of senior PSA pukes who never even had any flow got to go to AA ahead of 15 year Eagle guys. Your senior pilots sold out everybody in the industry for personal gain.
Oh, and there's that Envoy entitlement there on full display. News Flash for those that haven't gotten the memo yet, you work for a freaking regional that doesn't own any flying. Not AA, which actually does own the flying. Shocker I know.
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