Envoy 2019
04-16-2019, 02:46 PM
#911
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Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 141
[MENTION=57706]pinkvisual[/MENTION]. I believe what [MENTION=78322]Podrick[/MENTION] implied is, when on IOE a pilot can complete his/her/x fedride (25 hrs min of IOE) prior to completing the Envoy requirement (50 hrs of IOE for all new CAs). In that scenario, the pilot is still on IOE even after the fedride is complete.
Either way and as you and others have stated no PIC logged until both fedride & IOE line check is satisfactorily completed.
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04-17-2019, 02:20 AM
#912
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 1,609
[MENTION=57706]pinkvisual[/MENTION]. I believe what [MENTION=78322]Podrick[/MENTION] implied is, when on IOE a pilot can complete his/her/x fedride (25 hrs min of IOE) prior to completing the Envoy requirement (50 hrs of IOE for all new CAs). In that scenario, the pilot is still on IOE even after the fedride is complete.
Either way and as you and others have stated no PIC logged until both fedride & IOE line check is satisfactorily completed.
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Either way and as you and others have stated no PIC logged until both fedride & IOE line check is satisfactorily completed.
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04-17-2019, 12:53 PM
#917
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,729
04-17-2019, 03:04 PM
#918
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Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: Whole lotta sitting
Posts: 101
FO's logging PIC
Why don't you contact the FAA to get their official stance on this scenario instead of asking on a forum for guys to chime in. For the most part, asking guys that have no idea, myself included, on how the intricacies on this play out. Admittedly, I don't know how all of this part 61 nonsense applies, I'd find it hard to believe that you can anyway claim to pull any type of PIC time while acting as an SIC. But ask an FAA guy with some authority on this if you want an official answer.
Turns out, there really is a thread on APC for just about everything.
Logging PIC time as a FO
Bumping that thread
04-17-2019, 03:06 PM
#919
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Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: Whole lotta sitting
Posts: 101
That one's closed.
Short answer - technically legal but certainly not advisable, except maybe for insurance purposes.
I didn't contact the FAA, but I found a legal interpretation (Butler 92-40) in which the FAA legal counsel responds that it is legal for a type rated Pt 121 SIC to log PIC time when acting as "sole manipulator" (and it confirms the concept of the PF being "sole manipulator" even in an aircraft certificated for a min crew of 2).
It's here http://www.offhand.org/amb/pic-time.txt
and then search for "92-40" - it's about 1/5 of the way into the document . The FAA legal interpretation list on their web site does not go back that far. Here's the relevant quote.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
So legal, apparently, but clearly not advisable based on all the responses to this subject. Clearly meaningless in a 121 environment, but not widely acceptable for Pt 91 either, apparently. So clearly unwise to show up at a 91/135 interview claiming such time as PIC.
But for insurance purposes...…..it IS legal to log it as PIC.
Short answer - technically legal but certainly not advisable, except maybe for insurance purposes.
I didn't contact the FAA, but I found a legal interpretation (Butler 92-40) in which the FAA legal counsel responds that it is legal for a type rated Pt 121 SIC to log PIC time when acting as "sole manipulator" (and it confirms the concept of the PF being "sole manipulator" even in an aircraft certificated for a min crew of 2).
It's here http://www.offhand.org/amb/pic-time.txt
and then search for "92-40" - it's about 1/5 of the way into the document . The FAA legal interpretation list on their web site does not go back that far. Here's the relevant quote.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
So legal, apparently, but clearly not advisable based on all the responses to this subject. Clearly meaningless in a 121 environment, but not widely acceptable for Pt 91 either, apparently. So clearly unwise to show up at a 91/135 interview claiming such time as PIC.
But for insurance purposes...…..it IS legal to log it as PIC.
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