Envoy 2019
06-05-2019, 05:30 AM
#1201
Porco Rosso
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,522
One of the reasons 9E is tough on that front, though, is because the QOL is good for a regional. No one's getting junior manned. The pay is good. The reserve rules are fair, especially once you're above plug status.
The **** at Envoy doesn't happen at several regionals. Even if you're sold on an AA WO, there are better options.
06-05-2019, 05:33 AM
#1202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Position: Resigned
Posts: 1,547
I’d love to get junior manned into a day off once a month if it meant I stopped losing my line every other month to our shrinking bid sheet. I don’t know why you guys are so focused on this, maybe you don’t remember reserve?
Anyway, as my colleague rightly pointed out, what some of you seem to think is “normal guys and a vocal minority of entitled whiners” is actually the divide between generally happy 175 guys who’ve been on reserve for maybe 2-3 mos on average depending on hire date, and 145 pilots who are being awarded reserve involuntarily after a year and a half on the seniority list. It’s a radically different experience and while there is some overlap, the QOL is night and day.
Anyway, as my colleague rightly pointed out, what some of you seem to think is “normal guys and a vocal minority of entitled whiners” is actually the divide between generally happy 175 guys who’ve been on reserve for maybe 2-3 mos on average depending on hire date, and 145 pilots who are being awarded reserve involuntarily after a year and a half on the seniority list. It’s a radically different experience and while there is some overlap, the QOL is night and day.
06-05-2019, 05:36 AM
#1203
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 133
That junior man comment was kinda made in jest, yes other regionals are crappy I'll give you that and yes reserve is a necessity at an airline. Where the differences come in is where envoy lacks behind many peers. Start with reserve. 8 hour airport standby shifts with no limit on how many a month or how many in a row envoy has to be the worst they can even call in as many as they want during "OSO" as long as there are enough recliners. The reserve system is required yes, but at any given time Envoy has well over 25% of the pilot group on reserve because heaven forbid someone has a 15 minute connection. Then There's the commuting to reserve while other regionals have set in their contract commutable first days and contractual mechanisms for early release on last day. Envoy pre assigns 4 am RAP and it's up to whatever scheduler you get on the phone on your last day if they are going to release you or not.
As far as inefficient schedules go. Envoy gets the last pick of the flight file for American in each of it's bases so that leads us to get the leftovers that skywest or republic or whoever don't want. So we end up with a lot of short turns making it hard to build the most efficient schedules. That'd be fine if we had duty rigs, but we don't so we can spend 30 hours somewhere and make only per diem for that day.
And then there's the pay which as you said is inexcusable.
There's other things but I think these highlight a lot of what people have issues with. Can someone make envoy work for them? Sure, but I bet they could make other regionals work better.
As far as inefficient schedules go. Envoy gets the last pick of the flight file for American in each of it's bases so that leads us to get the leftovers that skywest or republic or whoever don't want. So we end up with a lot of short turns making it hard to build the most efficient schedules. That'd be fine if we had duty rigs, but we don't so we can spend 30 hours somewhere and make only per diem for that day.
And then there's the pay which as you said is inexcusable.
There's other things but I think these highlight a lot of what people have issues with. Can someone make envoy work for them? Sure, but I bet they could make other regionals work better.
The duty rig thing is not good. That’s a legitimate black mark.
Current job has 13-hour airport shifts and NO recliners.
Can you go into the release more on the last day? Shouldn’t you be done at noon after an 8-hour reserve shift? As in, they’re trying to see if they need to extend you for tomorrow so they won’t let you go home, or are you talking about the time left on the clock when they can no longer use you when you want to leave?
What’s the reality with all of the reserve proffering nonsense they talk about?
06-05-2019, 05:55 AM
#1204
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,633
That junior man comment was kinda made in jest, yes other regionals are crappy I'll give you that and yes reserve is a necessity at an airline. Where the differences come in is where envoy lacks behind many peers. Start with reserve. 8 hour airport standby shifts with no limit on how many a month or how many in a row envoy has to be the worst they can even call in as many as they want during "OSO" as long as there are enough recliners. The reserve system is required yes, but at any given time Envoy has well over 25% of the pilot group on reserve because heaven forbid someone has a 15 minute connection. Then There's the commuting to reserve while other regionals have set in their contract commutable first days and contractual mechanisms for early release on last day. Envoy pre assigns 4 am RAP and it's up to whatever scheduler you get on the phone on your last day if they are going to release you or not.
The standby shifts are assigned in reverse seniority order. My first month on reserve, I did 5 days. This was pretty much the norm for everyone in our class. And when new pilots that started after you (likely in 2 weeks time) show up on the reserve list, then they start picking up those standby shifts. The more senior guys might, if they get unlucky, do one standby a month. This only happens on the very crappy days when they actually go through the reserve list and use everyone. Very rare. More often standby shifts are picked up by commuters wanting to make day 1 commutable. Also, you cannot be assigned a later standby shift on your last day (unless you are the last reserve available).
OSO (Off Schedule Operations) happens a couple of times a month. And again, the added standby shifts go to the most junior pilots available. Some OSO days they don't add standby shifts at all, it depends on the reserve coverage.
Day 1 is preassigned RAP1(starting at 4am). But you can still proffer for a later start. Other days are RAP2 unless you confirm something else. A lot of commuters tend to proffer for standby starting at noon making day 1 commutable. And since the standbys go junior, most of the time you will get it. When you're a bit more senior, you can just proffer RAP2 and will get it.
Our contract also has pretty good provisions for reserve guys commuting who want to keep flying as much as possible.
I've been released early from my last day of reserve every single time. If I had RAP2(RAP2 is 10AM to midnight), earliest I've been released was 3pm, and the latest was 6pm. Sometimes you get one of the less liked schedulers. If they refuse, wait 5 minutes and call again usually works.
Commuting to reserve sucks I'm sure, but there are lots of things you can do to make it slightly more tolerable.
Yes, sometimes you get served a sh*t sandwich and get called to sit airport standby for no apparent reason for 2 hours, or get called from home to taxi an airplane around for 30 minutes. But most of the time things go pretty smooth, even on reserve.
06-05-2019, 06:04 AM
#1205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 687
And let me add a touch of reality to this one too:
The standby shifts are assigned in reverse seniority order. My first month on reserve, I did 5 days. This was pretty much the norm for everyone in our class. And when new pilots that started after you (likely in 2 weeks time) show up on the reserve list, then they start picking up those standby shifts. The more senior guys might, if they get unlucky, do one standby a month. This only happens on the very crappy days when they actually go through the reserve list and use everyone. Very rare. More often standby shifts are picked up by commuters wanting to make day 1 commutable. Also, you cannot be assigned a later standby shift on your last day (unless you are the last reserve available).
OSO (Off Schedule Operations) happens a couple of times a month. And again, the added standby shifts go to the most junior pilots available. Some OSO days they don't add standby shifts at all, it depends on the reserve coverage.
Day 1 is preassigned RAP1(starting at 4am). But you can still proffer for a later start. Other days are RAP2 unless you confirm something else. A lot of commuters tend to proffer for standby starting at noon making day 1 commutable. And since the standbys go junior, most of the time you will get it. When you're a bit more senior, you can just proffer RAP2 and will get it.
Our contract also has pretty good provisions for reserve guys commuting who want to keep flying as much as possible.
I've been released early from my last day of reserve every single time. If I had RAP2(RAP2 is 10AM to midnight), earliest I've been released was 3pm, and the latest was 6pm. Sometimes you get one of the less liked schedulers. If they refuse, wait 5 minutes and call again usually works.
Commuting to reserve sucks I'm sure, but there are lots of things you can do to make it slightly more tolerable.
Yes, sometimes you get served a sh*t sandwich and get called to sit airport standby for no apparent reason for 2 hours, or get called from home to taxi an airplane around for 30 minutes. But most of the time things go pretty smooth, even on reserve.
The standby shifts are assigned in reverse seniority order. My first month on reserve, I did 5 days. This was pretty much the norm for everyone in our class. And when new pilots that started after you (likely in 2 weeks time) show up on the reserve list, then they start picking up those standby shifts. The more senior guys might, if they get unlucky, do one standby a month. This only happens on the very crappy days when they actually go through the reserve list and use everyone. Very rare. More often standby shifts are picked up by commuters wanting to make day 1 commutable. Also, you cannot be assigned a later standby shift on your last day (unless you are the last reserve available).
OSO (Off Schedule Operations) happens a couple of times a month. And again, the added standby shifts go to the most junior pilots available. Some OSO days they don't add standby shifts at all, it depends on the reserve coverage.
Day 1 is preassigned RAP1(starting at 4am). But you can still proffer for a later start. Other days are RAP2 unless you confirm something else. A lot of commuters tend to proffer for standby starting at noon making day 1 commutable. And since the standbys go junior, most of the time you will get it. When you're a bit more senior, you can just proffer RAP2 and will get it.
Our contract also has pretty good provisions for reserve guys commuting who want to keep flying as much as possible.
I've been released early from my last day of reserve every single time. If I had RAP2(RAP2 is 10AM to midnight), earliest I've been released was 3pm, and the latest was 6pm. Sometimes you get one of the less liked schedulers. If they refuse, wait 5 minutes and call again usually works.
Commuting to reserve sucks I'm sure, but there are lots of things you can do to make it slightly more tolerable.
Yes, sometimes you get served a sh*t sandwich and get called to sit airport standby for no apparent reason for 2 hours, or get called from home to taxi an airplane around for 30 minutes. But most of the time things go pretty smooth, even on reserve.
It's not always going to be 2019. Envoy isn't always going to be hiring. Pick somewhere that is livable in the bad times too.
06-05-2019, 06:07 AM
#1206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 687
I know plenty of people at OO. They have some ridiculous schedules as well, but those generally improve with seniority.
The duty rig thing is not good. That’s a legitimate black mark.
Current job has 13-hour airport shifts and NO recliners.
Can you go into the release more on the last day? Shouldn’t you be done at noon after an 8-hour reserve shift? As in, they’re trying to see if they need to extend you for tomorrow so they won’t let you go home, or are you talking about the time left on the clock when they can no longer use you when you want to leave?
What’s the reality with all of the reserve proffering nonsense they talk about?
The duty rig thing is not good. That’s a legitimate black mark.
Current job has 13-hour airport shifts and NO recliners.
Can you go into the release more on the last day? Shouldn’t you be done at noon after an 8-hour reserve shift? As in, they’re trying to see if they need to extend you for tomorrow so they won’t let you go home, or are you talking about the time left on the clock when they can no longer use you when you want to leave?
What’s the reality with all of the reserve proffering nonsense they talk about?
Proffering works well if you are senior reserve otherwise it's a crapshoot. From 10 am to 2 pm all the reserves put what they want for the following day that is open and they are awarded in seniority order by 5 pm central.
13 hours airport standby? I'd pass on that I can see why you want out, but just because it's better here than where you are currently doesn't mean we have anything industry leading.
06-05-2019, 06:21 AM
#1207
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,633
I know plenty of people at OO. They have some ridiculous schedules as well, but those generally improve with seniority.
The duty rig thing is not good. That’s a legitimate black mark.
Current job has 13-hour airport shifts and NO recliners.
Can you go into the release more on the last day? Shouldn’t you be done at noon after an 8-hour reserve shift? As in, they’re trying to see if they need to extend you for tomorrow so they won’t let you go home, or are you talking about the time left on the clock when they can no longer use you when you want to leave?
What’s the reality with all of the reserve proffering nonsense they talk about?
The duty rig thing is not good. That’s a legitimate black mark.
Current job has 13-hour airport shifts and NO recliners.
Can you go into the release more on the last day? Shouldn’t you be done at noon after an 8-hour reserve shift? As in, they’re trying to see if they need to extend you for tomorrow so they won’t let you go home, or are you talking about the time left on the clock when they can no longer use you when you want to leave?
What’s the reality with all of the reserve proffering nonsense they talk about?
Our reserve shifts are 14 hours for "RAP" (Reserve Availability Period) or 8 hours for airport standby.
RAP1 is 04am to 6pm, RAP2 is 10am to midnight. RAP is a 2 hour callout.
We have 3 standby shifts, S1 is 6am to 2pm, S2 is 12pm to 8pm, and S3 is 3pm to 11pm. In DFW, they have 2 pilots per standby shift, so 6 pilots total sitting airport standby on any given day.
If they use a standby before the next shift has started, they can call the most junior available pilot on RAP to complete that shift (so you can get called at 8am to be at the airport at 10am to sit standby until 2pm).
A day before you are on reserve, you can "proffer" for any trips that are open (these tend to go senior), or RAP1/RAP2, or any of the standby shifts. These are awarded in seniority order before 5pm. So if you are a commuter, you likely will proffer for either RAP2, or S2 or S3. You know what you are getting before 5pm, so you can either commute in that day (if you only get RAP1 or S1), or you can stay home and commute the day of if you get one of the later starts. On your last day, you might want to proffer for S1, or RAP1, making the last day commutable.
If they don't have enough proffers for the required standby coverage, they will assign airport standby in reverse seniority order (most junior first). So at some point before 5pm the night before, you will see either RAP1, RAP2, S1/2/3 on your schedule.
On reserve, when you are very junior, you will work almost every day. Either you get called for airport standby, or a trip. When new guys start populating the reserve list and you move up in seniority, you work less and less. When you are halfway up the reserve list(2 months on the 175, much longer on 145), airport standby is very, very rare. And you usually can get whatever RAP or Standby you proffer for, making your reserve block commutable at both ends.
On your last day, unless there's crazy weather and everything is just a big clusterf, you can call and get released early. There's no real contractual protection for an early release, but like I said earlier, I've been released early every single time. If it looks bad the day before, just proffer for S1 and you're done at 2pm (and often get released earlier than that).
Airport standby isn't the end of the world. Bring a book. Or binge watch Netflix. Most guys sitting standby either sleep, get their 10000 steps by walking around the airport, or talk airplanes with other pilots. It really isn't that bad.
...In 5 minutes, there will be people saying I'm a company troll or a recruiter who posts things through a unicorn filter, and that in reality you sit standby for 7 days a week, and standby really is like being suspended in stocks, while being tickled to death.
06-05-2019, 06:28 AM
#1208
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 30
Really? The best pilots I have flown with did have degrees! They catch on easy, think way ahead of the airplane, see problems before they arise, have great resource management, are disciplined, and typically are level headed when making judgment calls. I can usually spot a non-degree pilot at envoy! Their learning curve is vastly different and tend to struggle a lot more.
Or are you talking about physically flying an airplane and being cognizant of limitations.
Or are you talking about physically flying an airplane and being cognizant of limitations.
06-05-2019, 06:31 AM
#1209
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 687
This is for 175, 145 has slightly different hours for shifts but the "logic" is the same:
Our reserve shifts are 14 hours for "RAP" (Reserve Availability Period) or 8 hours for airport standby.
RAP1 is 04am to 6pm, RAP2 is 10am to midnight. RAP is a 2 hour callout.
We have 3 standby shifts, S1 is 6am to 2pm, S2 is 12pm to 8pm, and S3 is 3pm to 11pm. In DFW, they have 2 pilots per standby shift, so 6 pilots total sitting airport standby on any given day.
If they use a standby before the next shift has started, they can call the most junior available pilot on RAP to complete that shift (so you can get called at 8am to be at the airport at 10am to sit standby until 2pm).
A day before you are on reserve, you can "proffer" for any trips that are open (these tend to go senior), or RAP1/RAP2, or any of the standby shifts. These are awarded in seniority order before 5pm. So if you are a commuter, you likely will proffer for either RAP2, or S2 or S3. You know what you are getting before 5pm, so you can either commute in that day (if you only get RAP1 or S1), or you can stay home and commute the day of if you get one of the later starts. On your last day, you might want to proffer for S1, or RAP1, making the last day commutable.
If they don't have enough proffers for the required standby coverage, they will assign airport standby in reverse seniority order (most junior first). So at some point before 5pm the night before, you will see either RAP1, RAP2, S1/2/3 on your schedule.
On reserve, when you are very junior, you will work almost every day. Either you get called for airport standby, or a trip. When new guys start populating the reserve list and you move up in seniority, you work less and less. When you are halfway up the reserve list(2 months on the 175, much longer on 145), airport standby is very, very rare. And you usually can get whatever RAP or Standby you proffer for, making your reserve block commutable at both ends.
On your last day, unless there's crazy weather and everything is just a big clusterf, you can call and get released early. There's no real contractual protection for an early release, but like I said earlier, I've been released early every single time. If it looks bad the day before, just proffer for S1 and you're done at 2pm (and often get released earlier than that).
Airport standby isn't the end of the world. Bring a book. Or binge watch Netflix. Most guys sitting standby either sleep, get their 10000 steps by walking around the airport, or talk airplanes with other pilots. It really isn't that bad.
...In 5 minutes, there will be people saying I'm a company troll or a recruiter who posts things through a unicorn filter, and that in reality you sit standby for 7 days a week, and standby really is like being suspended in stocks, while being tickled to death.
Our reserve shifts are 14 hours for "RAP" (Reserve Availability Period) or 8 hours for airport standby.
RAP1 is 04am to 6pm, RAP2 is 10am to midnight. RAP is a 2 hour callout.
We have 3 standby shifts, S1 is 6am to 2pm, S2 is 12pm to 8pm, and S3 is 3pm to 11pm. In DFW, they have 2 pilots per standby shift, so 6 pilots total sitting airport standby on any given day.
If they use a standby before the next shift has started, they can call the most junior available pilot on RAP to complete that shift (so you can get called at 8am to be at the airport at 10am to sit standby until 2pm).
A day before you are on reserve, you can "proffer" for any trips that are open (these tend to go senior), or RAP1/RAP2, or any of the standby shifts. These are awarded in seniority order before 5pm. So if you are a commuter, you likely will proffer for either RAP2, or S2 or S3. You know what you are getting before 5pm, so you can either commute in that day (if you only get RAP1 or S1), or you can stay home and commute the day of if you get one of the later starts. On your last day, you might want to proffer for S1, or RAP1, making the last day commutable.
If they don't have enough proffers for the required standby coverage, they will assign airport standby in reverse seniority order (most junior first). So at some point before 5pm the night before, you will see either RAP1, RAP2, S1/2/3 on your schedule.
On reserve, when you are very junior, you will work almost every day. Either you get called for airport standby, or a trip. When new guys start populating the reserve list and you move up in seniority, you work less and less. When you are halfway up the reserve list(2 months on the 175, much longer on 145), airport standby is very, very rare. And you usually can get whatever RAP or Standby you proffer for, making your reserve block commutable at both ends.
On your last day, unless there's crazy weather and everything is just a big clusterf, you can call and get released early. There's no real contractual protection for an early release, but like I said earlier, I've been released early every single time. If it looks bad the day before, just proffer for S1 and you're done at 2pm (and often get released earlier than that).
Airport standby isn't the end of the world. Bring a book. Or binge watch Netflix. Most guys sitting standby either sleep, get their 10000 steps by walking around the airport, or talk airplanes with other pilots. It really isn't that bad.
...In 5 minutes, there will be people saying I'm a company troll or a recruiter who posts things through a unicorn filter, and that in reality you sit standby for 7 days a week, and standby really is like being suspended in stocks, while being tickled to death.
06-05-2019, 06:32 AM
#1210
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,633
That's while things are good and you are on a growing fleet. You got lucky others won't and these are legitimate concerns at envoy that you are just glossing over. Sure you can proffer out of day 1 maybe, but what if your last flight to make it to base is at 430 and they haven't released the proffers yet, are you just going to chance the MA? You got hired at a good time and things are working out well for you, but I have sat 8 hours of standby 15 times in a month before because we had 7 standby shifts in a day and that requires a lot of junior people to you to avoid being called for that.
It's not always going to be 2019. Envoy isn't always going to be hiring. Pick somewhere that is livable in the bad times too.
It's not always going to be 2019. Envoy isn't always going to be hiring. Pick somewhere that is livable in the bad times too.
If that's how bad your commuting options are, I would definitely go elsewhere. I'm sure that imaginary city has later flights to other regional hubs.
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