Endeavor (9E) interviews and offers?
01-29-2014, 04:36 PM
#451
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Home with my family playing with my daughter as much as possible
Posts: 591
Endeavor (9E) interviews and offers?
The day of the quick upgrades are over folks. The fact that regionals are shrinking will stop that. If I were looking to get into the industry today, I would look for what airline had some sort of direct hiring program with a major. That being said 9E has 30% hiring spots from Delta through SSP and Flow. The flow won't last forever and Compass had flow and have a interview. The way I interpret our SSP is that Delta HAS to give 9E at least 30% of the hiring slots. They don't have to give Compass anything but an interview.
Now I'm more a QOL life person and if my goal was to be based at home, I would look at Delta's bases. If that appealed to me, I would choose 9E. It hurts to say...but it's true. Here is my math...
14 pilots per plane = 2000 pilots
Minimum planes at 9E = 81
1134 pilots needed.
200 pilots leaving per year (low estimate here) puts me at a 4-5 year upgrade and maybe 3-4 years at Delta. Not bad for a 21 year old kid entering Delta around 30 years old. If Delta failed, I'll be a Captain applying to other airlines and maybe at 35 worst case at a major.
That would still put me at 30 years at a major with a good retirement. Of course this is all speculation and barring any economical breakdown. But with the retirement numbers, you have a good chance. I'd be willing to gamble...
Maybe the majors did the math on that hence the 12/4 payscale. But I could be wrong.
All this said, this industry sucks. It "should" be getting better. You just have to be willing to have patience. Then you have to get through a beat up pilot group and keep from going crazy with all the grunting in the crewroom. You will still find grunting at mainline, so don't think since you made it to a major it's all gold flowers and feel goods.
Moral of my rant...from here out...it's going to be a slow process. Which risks are you willing to take? This job is a gamble, are you an ALL IN type or do you play the game to survive another day to hopefully hit the jackpot.
Now I'm more a QOL life person and if my goal was to be based at home, I would look at Delta's bases. If that appealed to me, I would choose 9E. It hurts to say...but it's true. Here is my math...
14 pilots per plane = 2000 pilots
Minimum planes at 9E = 81
1134 pilots needed.
200 pilots leaving per year (low estimate here) puts me at a 4-5 year upgrade and maybe 3-4 years at Delta. Not bad for a 21 year old kid entering Delta around 30 years old. If Delta failed, I'll be a Captain applying to other airlines and maybe at 35 worst case at a major.
That would still put me at 30 years at a major with a good retirement. Of course this is all speculation and barring any economical breakdown. But with the retirement numbers, you have a good chance. I'd be willing to gamble...
Maybe the majors did the math on that hence the 12/4 payscale. But I could be wrong.
All this said, this industry sucks. It "should" be getting better. You just have to be willing to have patience. Then you have to get through a beat up pilot group and keep from going crazy with all the grunting in the crewroom. You will still find grunting at mainline, so don't think since you made it to a major it's all gold flowers and feel goods.
Moral of my rant...from here out...it's going to be a slow process. Which risks are you willing to take? This job is a gamble, are you an ALL IN type or do you play the game to survive another day to hopefully hit the jackpot.
01-29-2014, 05:29 PM
#452
Stuck Mic
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,059
Everything written here is a complete guess and holds almost no merit. Most 7 year FOs at every regional out there were told upgrade would be anywhere from 6 months to 3 years. United pilots with 10 years seniority would have never guessed they would be on the chopping block to be furloughed.
AirTran captains never would have guessed they would be required to be an FO at southwest until 2015 if/when they had to go through the southwest training program even if they were already flying a 737.
Comair thought they were too big to fail or be shut down.
The only good decision you make about your future career at any airline is if it seems like the right decision the day you make it. Just ask the guys who thought they hit the jackpot when they were hired at TWA, or the ones who were hired at majors just before 9/11, or the new AirTran FOs that all of Sudden ended up on a southwest list. Orr he republic guys who thought they would all be flying an airbus shortly.
AirTran captains never would have guessed they would be required to be an FO at southwest until 2015 if/when they had to go through the southwest training program even if they were already flying a 737.
Comair thought they were too big to fail or be shut down.
The only good decision you make about your future career at any airline is if it seems like the right decision the day you make it. Just ask the guys who thought they hit the jackpot when they were hired at TWA, or the ones who were hired at majors just before 9/11, or the new AirTran FOs that all of Sudden ended up on a southwest list. Orr he republic guys who thought they would all be flying an airbus shortly.
01-30-2014, 09:20 AM
#453
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 442
The day of the quick upgrades are over folks. The fact that regionals are shrinking will stop that. If I were looking to get into the industry today, I would look for what airline had some sort of direct hiring program with a major. That being said 9E has 30% hiring spots from Delta through SSP and Flow. The flow won't last forever and Compass had flow and have a interview. The way I interpret our SSP is that Delta HAS to give 9E at least 30% of the hiring slots. They don't have to give Compass anything but an interview.
Now I'm more a QOL life person and if my goal was to be based at home, I would look at Delta's bases. If that appealed to me, I would choose 9E. It hurts to say...but it's true. Here is my math...
14 pilots per plane = 2000 pilots
Minimum planes at 9E = 81
1134 pilots needed.
200 pilots leaving per year (low estimate here) puts me at a 4-5 year upgrade and maybe 3-4 years at Delta. Not bad for a 21 year old kid entering Delta around 30 years old. If Delta failed, I'll be a Captain applying to other airlines and maybe at 35 worst case at a major.
That would still put me at 30 years at a major with a good retirement. Of course this is all speculation and barring any economical breakdown. But with the retirement numbers, you have a good chance. I'd be willing to gamble...
Maybe the majors did the math on that hence the 12/4 payscale. But I could be wrong.
All this said, this industry sucks. It "should" be getting better. You just have to be willing to have patience. Then you have to get through a beat up pilot group and keep from going crazy with all the grunting in the crewroom. You will still find grunting at mainline, so don't think since you made it to a major it's all gold flowers and feel goods.
Moral of my rant...from here out...it's going to be a slow process. Which risks are you willing to take? This job is a gamble, are you an ALL IN type or do you play the game to survive another day to hopefully hit the jackpot.
Now I'm more a QOL life person and if my goal was to be based at home, I would look at Delta's bases. If that appealed to me, I would choose 9E. It hurts to say...but it's true. Here is my math...
14 pilots per plane = 2000 pilots
Minimum planes at 9E = 81
1134 pilots needed.
200 pilots leaving per year (low estimate here) puts me at a 4-5 year upgrade and maybe 3-4 years at Delta. Not bad for a 21 year old kid entering Delta around 30 years old. If Delta failed, I'll be a Captain applying to other airlines and maybe at 35 worst case at a major.
That would still put me at 30 years at a major with a good retirement. Of course this is all speculation and barring any economical breakdown. But with the retirement numbers, you have a good chance. I'd be willing to gamble...
Maybe the majors did the math on that hence the 12/4 payscale. But I could be wrong.
All this said, this industry sucks. It "should" be getting better. You just have to be willing to have patience. Then you have to get through a beat up pilot group and keep from going crazy with all the grunting in the crewroom. You will still find grunting at mainline, so don't think since you made it to a major it's all gold flowers and feel goods.
Moral of my rant...from here out...it's going to be a slow process. Which risks are you willing to take? This job is a gamble, are you an ALL IN type or do you play the game to survive another day to hopefully hit the jackpot.
01-30-2014, 10:40 AM
#454
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 614
LOL. Did you do your math wrong? More like 4-5 years to get off reserve or get called back from furlough. Looks to me like Endeavor is overstaffed by 800 pilots for the fleet outlook we were given. "We are in a good position to keep some 200's" does not change the fleet outlook in my opinion.
Until we get an OFFICIAL revised plan it's all wishful thinking folks.
Endeavor is a shrinking airline guys. New hires and bottom-of-the-list FOs shouldn't expect many good things happen in the near future for them.
Now, if we keep all of them 200s, then that's a different story. You'll still have to put up with horrible work rules and insultingly low FO pay, but movement will be pretty decent.
Also keep this in mind, if you join 9E, be aware that you just joined a pilot group that will bend over easy to managements requests and dangling carrots, for better or for worse. We have demonstrated it, we'll get scared fairly easy and give stuff away fast, we fear of smoke and mirrors.
As of right now, I think there are better options for employment in my opinion...
01-30-2014, 12:03 PM
#455
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
Keep in mind the Mainline carriers want cheap feed. Endeavor does this and they will put the flying where it's being done cheaply. Regional air carriers whose pilots hold the line will lose flying. This is unfortunate but a reality. The regionals are a stepping stone. The good news is the majors are hiring so movement is coming. Delta wants to keep 200's at Endeavor but they need the staff. If new hires don't come then the jets will be parked.
01-30-2014, 12:08 PM
#456
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,575
Endeavor will keep as many -200's as it can staff, hours are being turned down due to staffing. Movement off the top is great, but if newhires don't arrive, the bottom still rises. For once, I can say that I do not see ANY furloughs possible at endeavor. If new hires arrive, upgrades will follow as airframes (-200's) will be kept as -900's still arrive. The shortfall of pilots will be parked airframes.
Endeavor is the cheapest with the newest -200's. From a business (mgmt) standpoint, it is brilliant. It could actually work out (only looking at staffing) very well for movement, but the new hires are the key. The Xjet/SkyW battle will continue, remember that the 50 seaters will end up parked down to 125 airframes for DCI AND Delta now has a 2:1 and 30 -900's to award in the wings.
Play the chess game. DL has the DCI group in "Check" with only a few moves to hit "mate". A free market economy still exists and where pilots come and go, with limitations in the hiring pool. There are still more liabilities compared to assets in the regional marketplace. Figuring out the future, is a bit like playing Yen futures. You can make some great moves, or get hosed.
5 years ago, if you told me that what is the full blown truth and reality today, was to be, I would have laughed myself into tears. Now, the proper response is to a degree of conservatism and the "what if" factor. Regionals will always be a wild card. Before I was even 21, the goal was the quickest upgrade and a major by 25. Now, at 28, I am back to an FO seat, when street CA's were junior to me in initial. My decision at 21 was "go to a regional, don't care which, upgrade, and get out". That's not the advice I would give in retrospect. Quality over quantity. But Quality is the first thing to go once "quantity" has been lost.
Look at the liabitlities and moves from mgmt at SkyW/XJET/Eagle in the last few months, when RJET and PSA still scramble to fill classes on the "growth" model.
Boom will go the dynamite. Short it correctly. In 6 months, the landscape will change significantly once hiring begins next month for "summer" flying and the majors get the "we can't staff it" memo from regionals, with depressed margins at the regionals and NOBODY in the hiring pool.....
Endeavor is the cheapest with the newest -200's. From a business (mgmt) standpoint, it is brilliant. It could actually work out (only looking at staffing) very well for movement, but the new hires are the key. The Xjet/SkyW battle will continue, remember that the 50 seaters will end up parked down to 125 airframes for DCI AND Delta now has a 2:1 and 30 -900's to award in the wings.
Play the chess game. DL has the DCI group in "Check" with only a few moves to hit "mate". A free market economy still exists and where pilots come and go, with limitations in the hiring pool. There are still more liabilities compared to assets in the regional marketplace. Figuring out the future, is a bit like playing Yen futures. You can make some great moves, or get hosed.
5 years ago, if you told me that what is the full blown truth and reality today, was to be, I would have laughed myself into tears. Now, the proper response is to a degree of conservatism and the "what if" factor. Regionals will always be a wild card. Before I was even 21, the goal was the quickest upgrade and a major by 25. Now, at 28, I am back to an FO seat, when street CA's were junior to me in initial. My decision at 21 was "go to a regional, don't care which, upgrade, and get out". That's not the advice I would give in retrospect. Quality over quantity. But Quality is the first thing to go once "quantity" has been lost.
Look at the liabitlities and moves from mgmt at SkyW/XJET/Eagle in the last few months, when RJET and PSA still scramble to fill classes on the "growth" model.
Boom will go the dynamite. Short it correctly. In 6 months, the landscape will change significantly once hiring begins next month for "summer" flying and the majors get the "we can't staff it" memo from regionals, with depressed margins at the regionals and NOBODY in the hiring pool.....
01-30-2014, 12:09 PM
#457
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 442
Keep in mind the Mainline carriers want cheap feed. Endeavor does this and they will put the flying where it's being done cheaply. Regional air carriers whose pilots hold the line will lose flying. This is unfortunate but a reality. The regionals are a stepping stone. The good news is the majors are hiring so movement is coming. Delta wants to keep 200's at Endeavor but they need the staff. If new hires don't come then the jets will be parked.
01-30-2014, 01:31 PM
#458
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 442
Endeavor will keep as many -200's as it can staff, hours are being turned down due to staffing. Movement off the top is great, but if newhires don't arrive, the bottom still rises. For once, I can say that I do not see ANY furloughs possible at endeavor. If new hires arrive, upgrades will follow as airframes (-200's) will be kept as -900's still arrive. The shortfall of pilots will be parked airframes.
Endeavor is the cheapest with the newest -200's. From a business (mgmt) standpoint, it is brilliant. It could actually work out (only looking at staffing) very well for movement, but the new hires are the key. The Xjet/SkyW battle will continue, remember that the 50 seaters will end up parked down to 125 airframes for DCI AND Delta now has a 2:1 and 30 -900's to award in the wings.
Play the chess game. DL has the DCI group in "Check" with only a few moves to hit "mate". A free market economy still exists and where pilots come and go, with limitations in the hiring pool. There are still more liabilities compared to assets in the regional marketplace. Figuring out the future, is a bit like playing Yen futures. You can make some great moves, or get hosed.
5 years ago, if you told me that what is the full blown truth and reality today, was to be, I would have laughed myself into tears. Now, the proper response is to a degree of conservatism and the "what if" factor. Regionals will always be a wild card. Before I was even 21, the goal was the quickest upgrade and a major by 25. Now, at 28, I am back to an FO seat, when street CA's were junior to me in initial. My decision at 21 was "go to a regional, don't care which, upgrade, and get out". That's not the advice I would give in retrospect. Quality over quantity. But Quality is the first thing to go once "quantity" has been lost.
Look at the liabitlities and moves from mgmt at SkyW/XJET/Eagle in the last few months, when RJET and PSA still scramble to fill classes on the "growth" model.
Boom will go the dynamite. Short it correctly. In 6 months, the landscape will change significantly once hiring begins next month for "summer" flying and the majors get the "we can't staff it" memo from regionals, with depressed margins at the regionals and NOBODY in the hiring pool.....
Endeavor is the cheapest with the newest -200's. From a business (mgmt) standpoint, it is brilliant. It could actually work out (only looking at staffing) very well for movement, but the new hires are the key. The Xjet/SkyW battle will continue, remember that the 50 seaters will end up parked down to 125 airframes for DCI AND Delta now has a 2:1 and 30 -900's to award in the wings.
Play the chess game. DL has the DCI group in "Check" with only a few moves to hit "mate". A free market economy still exists and where pilots come and go, with limitations in the hiring pool. There are still more liabilities compared to assets in the regional marketplace. Figuring out the future, is a bit like playing Yen futures. You can make some great moves, or get hosed.
5 years ago, if you told me that what is the full blown truth and reality today, was to be, I would have laughed myself into tears. Now, the proper response is to a degree of conservatism and the "what if" factor. Regionals will always be a wild card. Before I was even 21, the goal was the quickest upgrade and a major by 25. Now, at 28, I am back to an FO seat, when street CA's were junior to me in initial. My decision at 21 was "go to a regional, don't care which, upgrade, and get out". That's not the advice I would give in retrospect. Quality over quantity. But Quality is the first thing to go once "quantity" has been lost.
Look at the liabitlities and moves from mgmt at SkyW/XJET/Eagle in the last few months, when RJET and PSA still scramble to fill classes on the "growth" model.
Boom will go the dynamite. Short it correctly. In 6 months, the landscape will change significantly once hiring begins next month for "summer" flying and the majors get the "we can't staff it" memo from regionals, with depressed margins at the regionals and NOBODY in the hiring pool.....
01-30-2014, 02:49 PM
#459
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Home with my family playing with my daughter as much as possible
Posts: 591
LOL. Did you do your math wrong? More like 4-5 years to get off reserve or get called back from furlough. Looks to me like Endeavor is overstaffed by 800 pilots for the fleet outlook we were given. "We are in a good position to keep some 200's" does not change the fleet outlook in my opinion.
200 pilots per year is a low estimate based on 9E wanting to hire 300-400 pilots...that is definitely NOT based on growth but attrition and wanting to stay at the same capacity.
You have to look at both sides of the equation. The lowest 9E will go is 81. They will sustain staffing until that point and if they shrink to that point, that won't stop pilots from leaving. So based on that... You can estimate that if someone joined today, it would take 4-5 years to upgrade.
I personally don't think 9E will get rid of a lot of 200's. Here is why. Staffing Dual Functionality: meaning Delta has many layers of staffing handling Delta and 9E management. Which means you have one person doing the job of two. Combine that with a low cost pilot group. There isn't a regional alive that can compete.
Why would Delta pay Skywest (which has many layers of managerial and staffing cost) vs themselves handling the lift. Delta handles the accounting, IT, and some parts of human resources for 9E.
Add the fact that 9E has the youngest 200 fleet. It made sense for them to buy 9E just as they bought an oil refinery....to save money and to put downward pressure on the cost of operations for a regional. If Delta gets rid of a lot of 200's from 9E, there is no downward pressure to other operators to cut their cost to compete.
It's a shame that Delta used 9E's bankruptcy situation against all labor groups, but hey that is business.
I'm just trying to help give constructive and intelligent thought for a new hire coming here. There are a lot of kids still looking to become pilots. I think we can be more mature for the future pilots coming on board and give them ALL of the data.
01-30-2014, 03:14 PM
#460
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 241
Dude...did you miss 9E will be losing 200 pilots a year. If Delta hires around 500 pilots a year for the next 5 years, 9E is GUARANTEED 150 of the slots per year. The other 50 pilots would go to random airlines.
200 pilots per year is a low estimate based on 9E wanting to hire 300-400 pilots...that is definitely NOT based on growth but attrition and wanting to stay at the same capacity.
You have to look at both sides of the equation. The lowest 9E will go is 81. They will sustain staffing until that point and if they shrink to that point, that won't stop pilots from leaving. So based on that... You can estimate that if someone joined today, it would take 4-5 years to upgrade.
I personally don't think 9E will get rid of a lot of 200's. Here is why. Staffing Dual Functionality: meaning Delta has many layers of staffing handling Delta and 9E management. Which means you have one person doing the job of two. Combine that with a low cost pilot group. There isn't a regional alive that can compete.
Why would Delta pay Skywest (which has many layers of managerial and staffing cost) vs themselves handling the lift. Delta handles the accounting, IT, and some parts of human resources for 9E.
Add the fact that 9E has the youngest 200 fleet. It made sense for them to buy 9E just as they bought an oil refinery....to save money and to put downward pressure on the cost of operations for a regional. If Delta gets rid of a lot of 200's from 9E, there is no downward pressure to other operators to cut their cost to compete.
It's a shame that Delta used 9E's bankruptcy situation against all labor groups, but hey that is business.
I'm just trying to help give constructive and intelligent thought for a new hire coming here. There are a lot of kids still looking to become pilots. I think we can be more mature for the future pilots coming on board and give them ALL of the data.
200 pilots per year is a low estimate based on 9E wanting to hire 300-400 pilots...that is definitely NOT based on growth but attrition and wanting to stay at the same capacity.
You have to look at both sides of the equation. The lowest 9E will go is 81. They will sustain staffing until that point and if they shrink to that point, that won't stop pilots from leaving. So based on that... You can estimate that if someone joined today, it would take 4-5 years to upgrade.
I personally don't think 9E will get rid of a lot of 200's. Here is why. Staffing Dual Functionality: meaning Delta has many layers of staffing handling Delta and 9E management. Which means you have one person doing the job of two. Combine that with a low cost pilot group. There isn't a regional alive that can compete.
Why would Delta pay Skywest (which has many layers of managerial and staffing cost) vs themselves handling the lift. Delta handles the accounting, IT, and some parts of human resources for 9E.
Add the fact that 9E has the youngest 200 fleet. It made sense for them to buy 9E just as they bought an oil refinery....to save money and to put downward pressure on the cost of operations for a regional. If Delta gets rid of a lot of 200's from 9E, there is no downward pressure to other operators to cut their cost to compete.
It's a shame that Delta used 9E's bankruptcy situation against all labor groups, but hey that is business.
I'm just trying to help give constructive and intelligent thought for a new hire coming here. There are a lot of kids still looking to become pilots. I think we can be more mature for the future pilots coming on board and give them ALL of the data.
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