BtoA

I know that there are some guys here that are voting yes at all costs. They were mad that the last one didn't pass.

I also know there are some serious concerns by others as to major concessions in this AIP. Maybe we can have a serious discussion of some things that might be holding you back.

I'll start:
JV scope. I see it as a major fail. I think trading global block hours for less share of our JVs is a bad precedent.

Virtual basing. I believe that it will make seniority and basing fluid and unpredictable. I believe many guys will find their QOL swinging rapidly as different VBs pop up and go away.

Sick leave is still a wreck. It really isn't significantly better than the failed TA. I would rather keep what we have.

OOB Yellow Slips are a loss of seniority and will decrease premium flying.

Sick leave will count as block time for calculating FAR limits. This will limit your ability to pick up extra flying in a month you get sick.

Those are a few of the concessions that are making it hard for me to accept the TA for the pay rates offered.


To be fair, there are surely some wins in the TA. I believe that the pay rates are good. They are pretty much in line with UAL, and I think they are about the minimum our pilot group would have accepted.

What are other wins?

I will say up front that I personally do not believe keeping something the same is a win. RJ scope and PS to me are status quo.

gloopy

I don't mind the sick leave counting against pick ups one bit. That is 100% fair.

I don't like the VB at all, but its up to us to immediately petition to drop it ASAP, as is our unilateral right to do even if the TA MEMRATs.

sailingfun

I'll start:
JV scope. I see it as a major fail. I think trading global block hours for less share of our JVs is a bad precedent.

It's a floor it's not a direct trade. From our current level of flying it's 1 flight a day from Europe. I will make the trade any day and you would be screaming if we traded it the other way also.


Virtual basing. I believe that it will make seniority and basing fluid and unpredictable. I believe many guys will find their QOL swinging rapidly as different VBs pop up and go away.

Then we pull it down ASAP or refuse to renew after 1 year.

Sick leave is still a wreck. It really isn't significantly better than the failed TA. I would rather keep what we have.

Has little to no impact on most pilots.


OOB Yellow Slips are a loss of seniority and will decrease premium flying.

How? They can and do cover trips with OOB reserves now before premium flying.

Sick leave will count as block time for calculating FAR limits. This will limit your ability to pick up extra flying in a month you get sick.

This makes sure the proper pilot gets the trip instead of the guy using tactical sick leave.




To be fair, there are surely some wins in the TA. I believe that the pay rates are good. They are pretty much in line with UAL, and I think they are about the minimum our pilot group would have accepted.

What are other wins?

I will say up front that I personally do not believe keeping something the same is a win. RJ scope and PS to me are status quo.[/QUOTE]

MikeF16

Ok, let me get out all my qualifiers so the rabid dogs on both sides don't rip me apart as having some sort of hidden agenda.

DPA card holder: yes and my card is active. We're not all frenzied maniacs who want ALPA to fail at all costs. The previous TA and the disgusting sell job is what prompted me to sign a card. I think the new reps have done a much better job of representing the pilot group and I'll probably let the card go dormant when it times out.

Previous TA: did not vote since I was on probation at the time it was released. Was a very strong NO supporter.

This TA: still undecided. 20 more years at the company so the work rules matter just as much as the pay. But to pretend pay doesn't matter is absolutely ridiculous. There is quality in quantity (of money).

I disagree that we are in the best negotiating environment ever. When we had the ability to strike and airline companies were strapped for cash and would go out of business after a 2 week strike we had big leverage. We have some leverage, but our ability to strike is almost nil, and if they chose to DAL could ride out a strike a lot longer than many of the captains I fly with. They have huge cash reserves, that matters should you ever get to a strike. It's a moot point since it is beyond highly unlikely that we'll be allowed to go that far and the company knows it. This is a negotiation, not the surrender on the deck of the USS Missouri at the end of WW2. That said, to me the new TA still feels like the company was asking for too much and it is not an easy decision for me to decide which way to vote.

Too address the OP:

Likely offset by the guys who are voting no at all costs. A lot of the previous 'yes' guys I have flown with realized the error of their ways, a few not so much. My "favorite" quote to date was an LCP who told me he loved his job so much he'd do it for free, and then complained about new hires who had the gall to vote no. If you'd do the job for free then why do you care what anybody votes? Wish I'd thought of that in the moment...

I'm not smart enough to fully appreciate this part of the trade. I know 46.5% is worse than we have now, if our MEC is telling the truth that is 1 round trip per day. Losing 1 trip per day is bad, but the sting is softened by defining the 650k floor to exclude A321 and 737-900s doing pond crossings. We also include our JV partners subsidiaries in the ratio which was previously undefined.

I and many others made the expensive decision to move our families into an existing domicile. A lot goes into a move when you have kids in school. With the swipe of a pen many of the reasons I moved have been whipped out from under my feet. I want this gone immediately.

I do not like the new SL. Even if it never effects me it still blows. I don't have a doctor. How the heck am I supposed to verify if for some unknown reason I go above 160 hours? Going to the doc for a note is effing ridiculous. You trust me with the lives of 200+ customers but I have to get a hall pass when I get a cold? This and the 'me too' where PS only counts if it helps the company really make me mad. I am doing my best to keep my decision unemotional but BS like this makes it really effing hard.

No, this is a win. CS can and often does involuntarily DH reserve pilots to other bases to cover flying.

On rare occasion an honest pilot will be negatively affected by this, my guess is more often it will work as intended and keep people from playing the sick-out to WS a better trip game.

Wins: Obviously the pay rates, 401k, vacation, per diem, and training are all gains. Perhaps they are just industry standard, but they are gains none the less. You'll have to decide for yourself if they're enough. Here are a few more wins.

1. Improved the reserve to regular line abuse by instituting premium pay for trips that go beyond 1/3 (domestic/international) days into the regular line month.

2. Fitness for Duty improvement

3. FAA medical leave

4. Disability bank -- although somehow the company managed to insult us even with this little gift item. Only 50% of the 1st 80 hours which you can then cash-in for 50% of the hourly value. Essentially 20 hours of pay per year (assuming you take 0 sick leave) if you manage to jump through all the hoops to where you can actually use this. Very small win.

5. Individual vacation days are a pretty big win in tightly staffed categories. Right now almost impossible to make any changes to your schedule to get a special or unexpected day off. This offers a little flexibility.

6. Training bypass expanded (maybe not a win in all cases)

7. Reroute pay improvements

8. Asterisk trip improvements

9. Probably less than 1 in a million odds, but there is the potential for quad pay on recovery flying .

break break...

Sailing, some day we have to meet in the lounge or PTC so I can show you how to quote . I agree with a bunch of what you said but OMG that post is a mess! If you're quoting from a phone or your surface I can give you a pass but on a computer we've got to up your game.

BtoA

Mike, 75-90% (how's that for hard numbers?) agree with you. Scope and VB still tip the scales too much for me.

And I moved to base as well.

Hawaii50

Good post. I remember you wrangling over your move decision on this board. Hope it's worked out well so far for you. I'm not sure the VBs will hurt you though. You most likely would still have had to commute. You'll be better off by far over the course of your career living in base.

I'm willing to give the VBs a chance. It may improve QOL for a lot of people. I live in base now but commuted for several years and it's the biggest QOL killer out there. If it proves itself more of a job and QOL killer instead of an improvement, it'll go away.

iFlyer

Hawaii50:

The problem with Virtual Basing - it is 100% undeniably to be used for Company productivity - it gets more flying done with less pilots and less pay. That is bad for the pilot group as a whole.

Individually, there may be commuters who luck out and happen to live in a city that Delta might put their particular aircraft type in a VB for a few months. Incredibly awesome! For them. But they are stagnating themselves, along with the rest of the pilot group to pay for that fleeting (pun, get it?) chance.

Delta is wily, knowing with the number of commuters we have, all they have to do is just dangle the possibility that they "might" think about putting your aircraft in your hometown... and we'll fall all over ourselves with stupid concessions.

It pits individuals against themselves and the pilot group. For the group, it's all negative, it's a cancer, and it needs to be shut down.

Hawaii50

I see your points. I'm confident if trip quality suffers people will be vocal and it will go away. As far as credit time goes though, the company always finds a way to get rid of most of that anyway in my opinion. I constantly ask myself why we even need pilot bases though as I work my way down to the lounge to sign in then back out again to go to the jet. The future may hold something completely different and better suited for the 21st century. We'll see.

Denny Crane

Agreed with the second paragraph.

Denny

Denny Crane

I see your point and tend to agree. But this very well could be a boon to ALL commuters who bid one by giving them Positive Space to and from work. At least I think it does....

Denny