What needs to be fixed? What is a win?
10-14-2016, 08:40 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 429
Ok, let me get out all my qualifiers so the rabid dogs on both sides don't rip me apart as having some sort of hidden agenda.
DPA card holder: yes and my card is active. We're not all frenzied maniacs who want ALPA to fail at all costs. The previous TA and the disgusting sell job is what prompted me to sign a card. I think the new reps have done a much better job of representing the pilot group and I'll probably let the card go dormant when it times out.
Previous TA: did not vote since I was on probation at the time it was released. Was a very strong NO supporter.
This TA: still undecided. 20 more years at the company so the work rules matter just as much as the pay. But to pretend pay doesn't matter is absolutely ridiculous. There is quality in quantity (of money).
I disagree that we are in the best negotiating environment ever. When we had the ability to strike and airline companies were strapped for cash and would go out of business after a 2 week strike we had big leverage. We have some leverage, but our ability to strike is almost nil, and if they chose to DAL could ride out a strike a lot longer than many of the captains I fly with. They have huge cash reserves, that matters should you ever get to a strike. It's a moot point since it is beyond highly unlikely that we'll be allowed to go that far and the company knows it. This is a negotiation, not the surrender on the deck of the USS Missouri at the end of WW2. That said, to me the new TA still feels like the company was asking for too much and it is not an easy decision for me to decide which way to vote.
Too address the OP:
Likely offset by the guys who are voting no at all costs. A lot of the previous 'yes' guys I have flown with realized the error of their ways, a few not so much. My "favorite" quote to date was an LCP who told me he loved his job so much he'd do it for free, and then complained about new hires who had the gall to vote no. If you'd do the job for free then why do you care what anybody votes? Wish I'd thought of that in the moment...
I'm not smart enough to fully appreciate this part of the trade. I know 46.5% is worse than we have now, if our MEC is telling the truth that is 1 round trip per day. Losing 1 trip per day is bad, but the sting is softened by defining the 650k floor to exclude A321 and 737-900s doing pond crossings. We also include our JV partners subsidiaries in the ratio which was previously undefined.
I and many others made the expensive decision to move our families into an existing domicile. A lot goes into a move when you have kids in school. With the swipe of a pen many of the reasons I moved have been whipped out from under my feet. I want this gone immediately.
I do not like the new SL. Even if it never effects me it still blows. I don't have a doctor. How the heck am I supposed to verify if for some unknown reason I go above 160 hours? Going to the doc for a note is effing ridiculous. You trust me with the lives of 200+ customers but I have to get a hall pass when I get a cold? This and the 'me too' where PS only counts if it helps the company really make me mad. I am doing my best to keep my decision unemotional but BS like this makes it really effing hard.
No, this is a win. CS can and often does involuntarily DH reserve pilots to other bases to cover flying.
On rare occasion an honest pilot will be negatively affected by this, my guess is more often it will work as intended and keep people from playing the sick-out to WS a better trip game.
Wins: Obviously the pay rates, 401k, vacation, per diem, and training are all gains. Perhaps they are just industry standard, but they are gains none the less. You'll have to decide for yourself if they're enough. Here are a few more wins.
1. Improved the reserve to regular line abuse by instituting premium pay for trips that go beyond 1/3 (domestic/international) days into the regular line month.
2. Fitness for Duty improvement
3. FAA medical leave
4. Disability bank -- although somehow the company managed to insult us even with this little gift item. Only 50% of the 1st 80 hours which you can then cash-in for 50% of the hourly value. Essentially 20 hours of pay per year (assuming you take 0 sick leave) if you manage to jump through all the hoops to where you can actually use this. Very small win.
5. Individual vacation days are a pretty big win in tightly staffed categories. Right now almost impossible to make any changes to your schedule to get a special or unexpected day off. This offers a little flexibility.
6. Training bypass expanded (maybe not a win in all cases)
7. Reroute pay improvements
8. Asterisk trip improvements
9. Probably less than 1 in a million odds, but there is the potential for quad pay on recovery flying
.
break break...
Sailing, some day we have to meet in the lounge or PTC so I can show you how to quote. I agree with a bunch of what you said but OMG that post is a mess! If you're quoting from a phone or your surface I can give you a pass but on a computer we've got to up your game.
DPA card holder: yes and my card is active. We're not all frenzied maniacs who want ALPA to fail at all costs. The previous TA and the disgusting sell job is what prompted me to sign a card. I think the new reps have done a much better job of representing the pilot group and I'll probably let the card go dormant when it times out.
Previous TA: did not vote since I was on probation at the time it was released. Was a very strong NO supporter.
This TA: still undecided. 20 more years at the company so the work rules matter just as much as the pay. But to pretend pay doesn't matter is absolutely ridiculous. There is quality in quantity (of money).
I disagree that we are in the best negotiating environment ever. When we had the ability to strike and airline companies were strapped for cash and would go out of business after a 2 week strike we had big leverage. We have some leverage, but our ability to strike is almost nil, and if they chose to DAL could ride out a strike a lot longer than many of the captains I fly with. They have huge cash reserves, that matters should you ever get to a strike. It's a moot point since it is beyond highly unlikely that we'll be allowed to go that far and the company knows it. This is a negotiation, not the surrender on the deck of the USS Missouri at the end of WW2. That said, to me the new TA still feels like the company was asking for too much and it is not an easy decision for me to decide which way to vote.
Too address the OP:
Likely offset by the guys who are voting no at all costs. A lot of the previous 'yes' guys I have flown with realized the error of their ways, a few not so much. My "favorite" quote to date was an LCP who told me he loved his job so much he'd do it for free, and then complained about new hires who had the gall to vote no. If you'd do the job for free then why do you care what anybody votes? Wish I'd thought of that in the moment...
I'm not smart enough to fully appreciate this part of the trade. I know 46.5% is worse than we have now, if our MEC is telling the truth that is 1 round trip per day. Losing 1 trip per day is bad, but the sting is softened by defining the 650k floor to exclude A321 and 737-900s doing pond crossings. We also include our JV partners subsidiaries in the ratio which was previously undefined.
I and many others made the expensive decision to move our families into an existing domicile. A lot goes into a move when you have kids in school. With the swipe of a pen many of the reasons I moved have been whipped out from under my feet. I want this gone immediately.
I do not like the new SL. Even if it never effects me it still blows. I don't have a doctor. How the heck am I supposed to verify if for some unknown reason I go above 160 hours? Going to the doc for a note is effing ridiculous. You trust me with the lives of 200+ customers but I have to get a hall pass when I get a cold? This and the 'me too' where PS only counts if it helps the company really make me mad. I am doing my best to keep my decision unemotional but BS like this makes it really effing hard.
No, this is a win. CS can and often does involuntarily DH reserve pilots to other bases to cover flying.
On rare occasion an honest pilot will be negatively affected by this, my guess is more often it will work as intended and keep people from playing the sick-out to WS a better trip game.
Wins: Obviously the pay rates, 401k, vacation, per diem, and training are all gains. Perhaps they are just industry standard, but they are gains none the less. You'll have to decide for yourself if they're enough. Here are a few more wins.
1. Improved the reserve to regular line abuse by instituting premium pay for trips that go beyond 1/3 (domestic/international) days into the regular line month.
2. Fitness for Duty improvement
3. FAA medical leave
4. Disability bank -- although somehow the company managed to insult us even with this little gift item. Only 50% of the 1st 80 hours which you can then cash-in for 50% of the hourly value. Essentially 20 hours of pay per year (assuming you take 0 sick leave) if you manage to jump through all the hoops to where you can actually use this. Very small win.
5. Individual vacation days are a pretty big win in tightly staffed categories. Right now almost impossible to make any changes to your schedule to get a special or unexpected day off. This offers a little flexibility.
6. Training bypass expanded (maybe not a win in all cases)
7. Reroute pay improvements
8. Asterisk trip improvements
9. Probably less than 1 in a million odds, but there is the potential for quad pay on recovery flying
.break break...
Sailing, some day we have to meet in the lounge or PTC so I can show you how to quote
. I agree with a bunch of what you said but OMG that post is a mess! If you're quoting from a phone or your surface I can give you a pass but on a computer we've got to up your game.Re: 160 hours and you don't have a Doc? If you routinely take 2 months off sick a year you seriously need a personal Doc. We all need a personal Doc to run things by before we see the FAA and that isn't JMO. You can go to local drug store and see a Doc in a Box which isn't a big pain or terribly expensive to get a note. Also: I haven't verified this: since UHC is pressing with the "telephone/internet virtual doc visit" it should be pretty easy to get this counted for your verification. Have a nice weekend! OFG
10-14-2016, 10:07 AM
#12
Otto
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: Turkish Pile Driver
Posts: 1,806
Good post. I remember you wrangling over your move decision on this board. Hope it's worked out well so far for you. I'm not sure the VBs will hurt you though. You most likely would still have had to commute. You'll be better off by far over the course of your career living in base.
I'm willing to give the VBs a chance. It may improve QOL for a lot of people. I live in base now but commuted for several years and it's the biggest QOL killer out there. If it proves itself more of a job and QOL killer instead of an improvement, it'll go away.
I'm willing to give the VBs a chance. It may improve QOL for a lot of people. I live in base now but commuted for several years and it's the biggest QOL killer out there. If it proves itself more of a job and QOL killer instead of an improvement, it'll go away.
JMO, but I think the global protections vs JV is a win. We want to protect jobs which is hours. Excluding the small jets from the numbers is good and global protections are both good and good business sense: ie it allows the company to shift flying to markets that are making money and strategically reduce where necessary: while keeping our big airplane jobs. Unless I totally misread it....
Re: 160 hours and you don't have a Doc? If you routinely take 2 months off sick a year you seriously need a personal Doc. We all need a personal Doc to run things by before we see the FAA and that isn't JMO. You can go to local drug store and see a Doc in a Box which isn't a big pain or terribly expensive to get a note. Also: I haven't verified this: since UHC is pressing with the "telephone/internet virtual doc visit" it should be pretty easy to get this counted for your verification. Have a nice weekend! OFG
Re: 160 hours and you don't have a Doc? If you routinely take 2 months off sick a year you seriously need a personal Doc. We all need a personal Doc to run things by before we see the FAA and that isn't JMO. You can go to local drug store and see a Doc in a Box which isn't a big pain or terribly expensive to get a note. Also: I haven't verified this: since UHC is pressing with the "telephone/internet virtual doc visit" it should be pretty easy to get this counted for your verification. Have a nice weekend! OFG
EDIT: btw, I'm really kind of torn on JV for another reason. Contrary to The Rules of the Road where the company pontificates that I should have integrity and should keep my deals, they have proven beyond a doubt that $$$ trumps their word (contract) as they have flagrantly violated our JV scope for years on end. That said, if the contract regarding scope is worthless anyway then why should I care if we trade it away? The 650k block hour floor sounds great but who really thinks that when push comes to shove the company will honor that floor?
Last edited by MikeF16; 10-14-2016 at 10:40 AM.
10-14-2016, 10:45 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 367
1/13 chance, what could go wrong with that? Maybe eliminate seat locks so we can bounce between four different airframes a year and drive to work.
10-14-2016, 10:53 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 367
It has been financially lucrative and much less stressful living in base. I just don't like the ATL area so outside work it's been a major fail. I won't move again until the kids are established in college and not coming home regularly, I'm anchored for at least 6 years but then I'm pretty sure I want out of the south.
10-14-2016, 11:45 AM
#16
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: 767 Capt.
Posts: 64
Any kind of survivable retirement. Maybe not another pension. Maybe not even the equivalent of an FAE 60%. Or 50%. Or 40%. But another 1% on top of a completely unsurvivable gutting of the Dead Zone group leaves no reason whatsoever to vote yes.
Don't worry though. The MEC says they feel our pain but there aren't enough of us to swing the vote.
Don't worry though. The MEC says they feel our pain but there aren't enough of us to swing the vote.
10-14-2016, 06:39 PM
#18
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,991
As far as VB - who the heck knows how it will play out, I certainly don't but I am not against trying it out. To all the guys who want to take a long term perspective on the TA - this is a trial and can be taken down unilaterally by DALPA.
One thing I am pretty sure of is that after a year of getting PS to work and paid for Hotel rooms there will be a substantial number of DAL Pilots who will be very happy with VB.
Will it be good enough for the Pilot group as a whole to keep? No way to tell unless we try it.
Scoop
One thing I am pretty sure of is that after a year of getting PS to work and paid for Hotel rooms there will be a substantial number of DAL Pilots who will be very happy with VB.
Will it be good enough for the Pilot group as a whole to keep? No way to tell unless we try it.
Scoop
10-15-2016, 01:17 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
As far as VB - who the heck knows how it will play out, I certainly don't but I am not against trying it out. To all the guys who want to take a long term perspective on the TA - this is a trial and can be taken down unilaterally by DALPA.
One thing I am pretty sure of is that after a year of getting PS to work and paid for Hotel rooms there will be a substantial number of DAL Pilots who will be very happy with VB.
Will it be good enough for the Pilot group as a whole to keep? No way to tell unless we try it.
Scoop
One thing I am pretty sure of is that after a year of getting PS to work and paid for Hotel rooms there will be a substantial number of DAL Pilots who will be very happy with VB.
Will it be good enough for the Pilot group as a whole to keep? No way to tell unless we try it.
Scoop
The main places we're hearing it'll be tired are cheap hotel markets even, so its not about that very much. This is about cutting credit and optimizing us so they can cover flying with as few of us as possible. As a bonus, it poaches the real bases and their flying. No thanks. I'm very pro commuter, and am very much in favor of "spending capital" to get additional gains for commuters. Commuting is here to stay, het used to it. Its a part of the industry and must be accomidated. But this is not how we should do it. I will advocate immediately for these to be pulled down and hope most do too. Horrible idea and precedent.
10-15-2016, 02:04 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 271
Vacation and training pay need to come way up.
Medical needs a major reboot...Have a sick spouse or kid at home and you will know what I mean.
Retirement needs to be looked at, allot of the tweeeners did not get much from pbgc and not enough time to save before retirements. Maybe an annuity based on how many years of service to help offset.
Per diem needs a major raise, not just 5 cents an hour increase.
But honestly can't complain about ta16 compared to ta15. Good job guys!!!
Medical needs a major reboot...Have a sick spouse or kid at home and you will know what I mean.
Retirement needs to be looked at, allot of the tweeeners did not get much from pbgc and not enough time to save before retirements. Maybe an annuity based on how many years of service to help offset.
Per diem needs a major raise, not just 5 cents an hour increase.
But honestly can't complain about ta16 compared to ta15. Good job guys!!!
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