Negotiation sessions scheduled
09-02-2016, 06:47 AM
#101
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,010
Scoop
09-02-2016, 06:49 AM
#102
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
09-02-2016, 07:31 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
09-02-2016, 07:46 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,153
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does.
09-02-2016, 07:59 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 429
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
You are right.. sorta. If we could instantly in house the DCI flying (only way I see as possible would be to buy them all and staple them). We'd need a few less total pilots than DCI currently uses. Because we wouldn't want their rates and once we applied our rates DL would likely cut some of the flying. And we'd have the ability to bid 50 seater Capt.. any takers? International isn't that easy. Some of our flying is enabled by the international feed and wouldn't otherwise exist. Some of our gate/slot access over the years has been enabled by the JVs. We don't have a decent partner in Japan: how is that working? A few years ago we had zero access to LHR. Neither AMR nor UAL does all their own international flying. You want to know the key? Better OD cities and better partners: that is my opinion and I'm right. I agree our scope protections should be better with stiff penalties.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
OK...apples to apples? Does SWA use 15% more pilots pr hour than DL? No way. I can't get there. A computer program can easily manipulate the available trips to build the minimum number of lines: Its just a math/sorting problem. 15% no posible way. Talk QOL. Senior would not like going back to lines. People who bid RLL and low time or stack their months to allow WS/GS/mini vacation would have less ability to do so.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
I agree, 2000 maybe but I would guess closer to 1000. Not everyone could bid the line that touches 2 6 day trips... because with a line system the computer knows vacations happen and trys to limit those opportunities. However, most could touch something on at least one side of the vaca (some couldn't touch anything). I know. I've been there. 2000 maybe.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
Please explain this. Perhaps I don't know how it works, but mostly wouldn't our small number of short time trips be paid more? Probably cap out sooner and need a small number of additional bodies.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
?Again: 1200? 6.5 TFP is about 5.7 hours vs proposed 4 hrs. So, ball parking: 14,000 pilots get an extra 3.4 hrs every 9 months. 3.4 X 14000 = 47,600 hrs divided by 9 = 5289 hrs/month div by 80 hr month and I get 66.11 pilots flying 80 hr months. Where do the 1134 others come from. As for the reserve.. SWA's all short call all the time would cut manning requirements and GS/WS availability by a lot. So, wouldn't we just primarily get paid more for training? I'm all for more.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
I can't get to that number.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
You are right.. sorta. If we could instantly in house the DCI flying (only way I see as possible would be to buy them all and staple them). We'd need a few less total pilots than DCI currently uses. Because we wouldn't want their rates and once we applied our rates DL would likely cut some of the flying. And we'd have the ability to bid 50 seater Capt.. any takers? International isn't that easy. Some of our flying is enabled by the international feed and wouldn't otherwise exist. Some of our gate/slot access over the years has been enabled by the JVs. We don't have a decent partner in Japan: how is that working? A few years ago we had zero access to LHR. Neither AMR nor UAL does all their own international flying. You want to know the key? Better OD cities and better partners: that is my opinion and I'm right. I agree our scope protections should be better with stiff penalties.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
OK...apples to apples? Does SWA use 15% more pilots pr hour than DL? No way. I can't get there. A computer program can easily manipulate the available trips to build the minimum number of lines: Its just a math/sorting problem. 15% no posible way. Talk QOL. Senior would not like going back to lines. People who bid RLL and low time or stack their months to allow WS/GS/mini vacation would have less ability to do so.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
I agree, 2000 maybe but I would guess closer to 1000. Not everyone could bid the line that touches 2 6 day trips... because with a line system the computer knows vacations happen and trys to limit those opportunities. However, most could touch something on at least one side of the vaca (some couldn't touch anything). I know. I've been there. 2000 maybe.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
Please explain this. Perhaps I don't know how it works, but mostly wouldn't our small number of short time trips be paid more? Probably cap out sooner and need a small number of additional bodies.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
?Again: 1200? 6.5 TFP is about 5.7 hours vs proposed 4 hrs. So, ball parking: 14,000 pilots get an extra 3.4 hrs every 9 months. 3.4 X 14000 = 47,600 hrs divided by 9 = 5289 hrs/month div by 80 hr month and I get 66.11 pilots flying 80 hr months. Where do the 1134 others come from. As for the reserve.. SWA's all short call all the time would cut manning requirements and GS/WS availability by a lot. So, wouldn't we just primarily get paid more for training? I'm all for more.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
I can't get to that number.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
09-02-2016, 08:01 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS.
Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots.
:54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots.
6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots.
At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip.
Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45.
09-02-2016, 08:09 AM
#107
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I agree with this final bit, but its probably just easier for the SWA system to build 7 hour domestic days than it is for a hub system. I don't think our system deliberately makes people sit around, but some are just going to have to sit around in a complex hub and spoke system. Company is maximizing connections and revenue at the expense of our sit around and we should be compensated. But... if we did build 7 hr domestic days on all trips... wouldn't we need a whole lot fewer pilots? From my perspective, If I were flying domestic I'd prefer to work SWA's route system: cram the flying in and get it done. I can agree on that. OFG
When the aircraft is powered on, someone has to be in the cockpit at all times. Only one pilot may leave the plane when its on the ground with the power on to the cockpit.
09-02-2016, 08:17 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 429
No one said to set PS at zero but it is clearly a variable out of our control. If we turn a profit, great, if not, well...we should still have industry leading pay after these negotiations. Why (and how) do we have to place value on a variable? It should be a disbursement over and above to compensate and motivate for windfalls.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does.
09-02-2016, 07:14 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
No one said to set PS at zero but it is clearly a variable out of our control. If we turn a profit, great, if not, well...we should still have industry leading pay after these negotiations. Why (and how) do we have to place value on a variable? It should be a disbursement over and above to compensate and motivate for windfalls.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does.
PS is an unknown variable, and it is a fools errand for us to engage in determining either its comprehensive present or future value.PS is the return on the investment we made to acquire an ownership stake in the enterprise. sometimes it will be there....and sometimes not. in the meantime we all have to pay the light bill every month.....so our assessment of equitable compensation should focus and be based on the 'tangible' compensation components of our working agreement.
09-02-2016, 07:19 PM
#110
Bus driver
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 839
Great point BobZ...Industry standard pay should be achieved without blinking an eye, just because Delta is in the game. Any "unlocking" value should be further rewarded with tangible gets. As to PS, how much does it pay when there is no P? I'm with you, pay the bills based on tangibles. If the P is there, everyone benefits, and I'll use that money to buy the next toy...maybe a high performance wake board boat!
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