Last Year > This Week
08-14-2016, 12:56 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
I still contend that a one for one trade (AFTER pay raises) to some extent is a good idea. Others disagree... which is fine. That is all I have to say. Now back to whatever it was the group was arguing about.
08-14-2016, 01:05 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,456
You obviously did not read my last sentence. A PS for pay rate trade is exactly that, a trade not a raise. In fact I am on board with a contract that provides for pay raises, then after that is ratified THEN discuss a PS for pay rates trade.
But those opposed to the trade are mathematically challenged.
Let me ask you. When C2K was ratified it was applauded for getting rid of PS, not criticized. Were we "doomed" then? Certainly no one was claiming that.
But those opposed to the trade are mathematically challenged.
Let me ask you. When C2K was ratified it was applauded for getting rid of PS, not criticized. Were we "doomed" then? Certainly no one was claiming that.
08-14-2016, 01:18 PM
#83
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Everyone wants that. That is easy. Problem is the company has clearly stated that for any deal ever get done, a few of their issues need to be addressed. Case in point is, "the best MEC ever" has realized this as well. With the release of the AIP's the internet has gotten mad, and the MEC is now blinking.
Just because manamgent says it's a "Deal breaker" doesnt' mean we need to accept it.
If the used car dealer says he won't do a deal unless we pay $50k for his Yugo, that doesn't mean we have to buy the Yugo.
08-14-2016, 01:29 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,235
It is not obsolete. Why you keep pounding that drum over and over I'll never understood.
Money now is almost always worth more than money later. Except, you'd rather get money later than money now. Why?
You get your PS "in advance" if you will, every single paycheck. You'll get some tomorrow, and Sept 15, etc. That beats waiting until Feb 14. However... I don't consider a PS for pay rate change a raise. It is merely a transfer, but in advance.
Money now is almost always worth more than money later. Except, you'd rather get money later than money now. Why?
You get your PS "in advance" if you will, every single paycheck. You'll get some tomorrow, and Sept 15, etc. That beats waiting until Feb 14. However... I don't consider a PS for pay rate change a raise. It is merely a transfer, but in advance.
So today you'd still be getting your money earlier (the same amount you get today) PLUS you'd get your FULL PROFIT SHARING OF THE ORINIAL FORMULA. Instead you're now receiving the same pay with a diluted PS payout in FEB. You see, you're current pay would be the same, but the PS payout would be larger on top of it had we not traded it away.
08-14-2016, 01:34 PM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,235
In addition to our PS mistake made in C2012, the trade only breaks even for the duration of that contract cycle. Future negotiated pay rates aren't going to give us an added bonus for what we gave up in 2012.
Do you hear us asking for our industry leading rates, plus credit for the Profit Sharing we gave up in C2012? No. When you give it away, it's gone and you won't benefit from it down the road.
Do you hear us asking for our industry leading rates, plus credit for the Profit Sharing we gave up in C2012? No. When you give it away, it's gone and you won't benefit from it down the road.
08-14-2016, 01:54 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 845
In addition to our PS mistake made in C2012, the trade only breaks even for the duration of that contract cycle. Future negotiated pay rates aren't going to give us an added bonus for what we gave up in 2012.
Do you hear us asking for our industry leading rates, plus credit for the Profit Sharing we gave up in C2012? No. When you give it away, it's gone and you won't benefit from it down the road.
Do you hear us asking for our industry leading rates, plus credit for the Profit Sharing we gave up in C2012? No. When you give it away, it's gone and you won't benefit from it down the road.
Ding Ding Ding!! This right here...I don't understand why some don't grasp this concept. It's not rocket surgery..
08-14-2016, 01:59 PM
#87
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
In addition to our PS mistake made in C2012, the trade only breaks even for the duration of that contract cycle. Future negotiated pay rates aren't going to give us an added bonus for what we gave up in 2012.
Do you hear us asking for our industry leading rates, plus credit for the Profit Sharing we gave up in C2012? No. When you give it away, it's gone and you won't benefit from it down the road.
Do you hear us asking for our industry leading rates, plus credit for the Profit Sharing we gave up in C2012? No. When you give it away, it's gone and you won't benefit from it down the road.
Right now, today. Are we getting any credit for trading the low end of PS for a few bucks in 2012? No.
That sell off is being used against us.
08-14-2016, 02:00 PM
#88
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,992
You obviously did not read my last sentence. A PS for pay rate trade is exactly that, a trade not a raise. In fact I am on board with a contract that provides for pay raises, then after that is ratified THEN discuss a PS for pay rates trade.
But those opposed to the trade are mathematically challenged.
Let me ask you. When C2K was ratified it was applauded for getting rid of PS, not criticized. Were we "doomed" then? Certainly no one was claiming that.
But those opposed to the trade are mathematically challenged.
Let me ask you. When C2K was ratified it was applauded for getting rid of PS, not criticized. Were we "doomed" then? Certainly no one was claiming that.
I agree with this logic but you run into the same problem - on the very next TA cycle our pay rates will be compared with our peers. Poof, the PS that we traded for is now baked into the pay rates - which are tied to our peers.
Long term - very bad move. I really don't mind having a portion of my pay at risk. If we lose money PS goes to zero - bummer. But on the other hand after profits resume, which they will, PS returns automatically without trading anything for it -Sweet.
If the perpetually around the corner black swan ever does show up all compensation is at risk anyway.
Scoop
08-14-2016, 03:07 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,456
Fixed it for you... there is no gain just a trade. Left pocket to right pocket.
08-14-2016, 03:32 PM
#90
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
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