SWAPA allowed to pull opener and resubmit
07-17-2016, 06:16 AM
#21
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
I'll say it again. Shortened version.
The NMB will NEVER release the Delta pilots. (or SWAPA)
Therefore the NMB is irrelevant.
If we keep worrying what our "mediator" will think then these negotiations will go on for years. Just like SWAPA. Look at the memo that opened this thread ---> 1413 days.
The mediator doesn't want a contract. He only wants to prevent a strike. His job is to facilitate stalling.
If we need to rethink our table position in light of current events in the market for pilots then we should not hesitate to do so. What's the NMB going to do about it? Threaten to "park" us? How is that any different than mediation that lasts for years?
We are only going to get an agreement when management needs one.
Its time to do battle.
Kicking Dickson out of the union is a good start. We need to continue the process of "de-legitimizing" management. Respond to every "keep up the good work" memo they send out with one of our own. Make it our goal to finish 10th in the JD Power rankings.
And oh yeah --
Unionize the flight attendants.
The NMB will NEVER release the Delta pilots. (or SWAPA)
Therefore the NMB is irrelevant.
If we keep worrying what our "mediator" will think then these negotiations will go on for years. Just like SWAPA. Look at the memo that opened this thread ---> 1413 days.
The mediator doesn't want a contract. He only wants to prevent a strike. His job is to facilitate stalling.
If we need to rethink our table position in light of current events in the market for pilots then we should not hesitate to do so. What's the NMB going to do about it? Threaten to "park" us? How is that any different than mediation that lasts for years?
We are only going to get an agreement when management needs one.
Its time to do battle.
Kicking Dickson out of the union is a good start. We need to continue the process of "de-legitimizing" management. Respond to every "keep up the good work" memo they send out with one of our own. Make it our goal to finish 10th in the JD Power rankings.
And oh yeah --
Unionize the flight attendants.
07-17-2016, 06:19 AM
#22
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,619
Objectively, there were most certainly 'gives' in the UPS TA. Reserves rules were changed to make them more somewhat more flexible and therefore potentially more productive, as an example.
There were also plenty of 'takes'; the reserve flexibility above was mitigated with a number of restrictions/protections and reserves owe one less duty day to the company.
In the end, IMO, there are many more 'takes' than there were 'gives' and the TA represents no home runs but very solid gains across the entire CBA.
To expect absolutely zero 'trades' whatsoever is, IMO, unrealistic.
There were also plenty of 'takes'; the reserve flexibility above was mitigated with a number of restrictions/protections and reserves owe one less duty day to the company.
In the end, IMO, there are many more 'takes' than there were 'gives' and the TA represents no home runs but very solid gains across the entire CBA.
To expect absolutely zero 'trades' whatsoever is, IMO, unrealistic.
07-17-2016, 06:25 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,960
Helping the company. Haven't we done that? The contract is a shell of what it had been. Pension, medical, vacation, home/self training. Two areas that are above industry standard, Profit sharing and sick leave are under attack for the second straight contract.
Why? Making record profits with the current PS and SL. Making so much they're burning it on buy backs and fuel hedges. Why can't they leave it alone? That's the 64k question.
Why? Making record profits with the current PS and SL. Making so much they're burning it on buy backs and fuel hedges. Why can't they leave it alone? That's the 64k question.
07-17-2016, 06:45 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 654
We are in Negotiations. Defined as, 1. General: Bargaining (give and take) process between two or more parties (each with its own aims, needs, and viewpoints) seeking to discover a common ground and reach an agreement to settle a matter of mutual concern or resolve a conflict. Noun form of the verb negotiate.
If anyone, and I seriously mean anyone expects a deal of any sort without some sort of trades, you are delirious. It's like my four year old demanding ice cream by crying, screaming, and stamping her feet when we say, "not until after you eat your vegetables." If she keeps it up, we ignore her.
If I'm EB that's what I would do. Anyone who thinks they "need" a deal more than we do, I turn your attention to the 1.7B in profit this quarter alone. They don't "need" anything. Sure they would "like" some changes but they don't "need" them.
They can drag this out a very long time. We are in a fortunate position of having PS as a hedge against our rates for the time being. Hopefully we keep making money, but for those that think we're getting 40% + PS, with zero trades(I don't use the phrase concession, b/c I do not believe a trade and a concession are the same thing) your not going to get it.
There is nothing wrong with helping your company improve it's competitive standing, if they in turn offer you a part of the proceeds.
If anyone, and I seriously mean anyone expects a deal of any sort without some sort of trades, you are delirious. It's like my four year old demanding ice cream by crying, screaming, and stamping her feet when we say, "not until after you eat your vegetables." If she keeps it up, we ignore her.
If I'm EB that's what I would do. Anyone who thinks they "need" a deal more than we do, I turn your attention to the 1.7B in profit this quarter alone. They don't "need" anything. Sure they would "like" some changes but they don't "need" them.
They can drag this out a very long time. We are in a fortunate position of having PS as a hedge against our rates for the time being. Hopefully we keep making money, but for those that think we're getting 40% + PS, with zero trades(I don't use the phrase concession, b/c I do not believe a trade and a concession are the same thing) your not going to get it.
There is nothing wrong with helping your company improve it's competitive standing, if they in turn offer you a part of the proceeds.
I'm really a bit aghast at this post, for so many reasons.
07-17-2016, 07:20 AM
#25
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,756
Helping the company. Haven't we done that? The contract is a shell of what it had been. Pension, medical, vacation, home/self training. Two areas that are above industry standard, Profit sharing and sick leave are under attack for the second straight contract.
Why? Making record profits with the current PS and SL. Making so much they're burning it on buy backs and fuel hedges. Why can't they leave it alone? That's the 64k question.
Why? Making record profits with the current PS and SL. Making so much they're burning it on buy backs and fuel hedges. Why can't they leave it alone? That's the 64k question.
I'll tell you:
1. Bag Fees added $1 Billion per year when they started that.
2. Fuel prices dropping added another couple Billion per year, or more, depending on which year/price we are talking about.
3. By NOT funding our DB plan, that saves them about $2 Billion per year.
4. PBS building 90 hour lines, that saves them 20% body count over line of time bidding with a 75 hour cap.
5. Other concessions from C2K like lost vacation weeks, huge medical premiums and deductibles, lost Scope JV EASK's and more large RJ's, had added more to the bottom line, at the cost of OUR wide body jobs too.
But hey, you'll look cool in the left seat of those new C100's!
WE have ALREADY given the company enough concessions to exit bankruptcy and become the highest earning airline in the history of all of commercial aviation!!
NO MORE!
RESTORE our Pay/Benefits First!
07-17-2016, 07:24 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,138
I'm merely pointing out that if we are waiting for a deal with zero trades we're going to be waiting a long time.
Fortunately, we have PS as a hedge against that delay. I'm happy with that and hope we get a deal severely stacked in our favor. I just don't think it will be soon. I hope I'm wrong and I'll be the first to come here and say I was wrong.
Fortunately, we have PS as a hedge against that delay. I'm happy with that and hope we get a deal severely stacked in our favor. I just don't think it will be soon. I hope I'm wrong and I'll be the first to come here and say I was wrong.
07-17-2016, 07:34 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 111
The mediators would have almost certainly been required to give permission to ALPA to publish the company pay proposal. I would take that to mean the mediator is not happy with the efforts of the company to make a deal.
There may be other things the mediator could do like this to help "facilitate" a deal.
There may be other things the mediator could do like this to help "facilitate" a deal.
07-17-2016, 11:39 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Lowest Pay I Could Find
Posts: 1,044
The mediators would have almost certainly been required to give permission to ALPA to publish the company pay proposal. I would take that to mean the mediator is not happy with the efforts of the company to make a deal.
There may be other things the mediator could do like this to help "facilitate" a deal.
There may be other things the mediator could do like this to help "facilitate" a deal.
