notEnuf

That is true but once UA and AA bump up they can't give raises without giving them to us so we are delayed but perpetually average pay rates with best in class profit sharing. That makes us industry leading in total compensation. The FAs are due to start organizing about the time we become amendable. Pay the FAs not to organize and we get a raise. Don't pay the FAs and have labor issues with the two brand building, employee facing, front line employee groups. I think this management will act to protect their progress and business plan.

UGBSM

Weaselorlando,

Well you didn't comment on my sprained ankle example, where this TA results in you being in a situation where you have to verify with a doctor every sniffle for a year. That could happen to you with this TA. Easily.

Now with regard to my examples of things hard to verify, my emotional and mental health ARE health issues in my opinion, and a perfectly justifiable reason to use sick leave. I hope you agree that you cannot and should not legally fly if you are not fit for duty. Period. Even if it is not a verifiable "sickness" that is causing you to be unfit.

Now if you have child care issues or something like that, then yes, call your chief pilot and try to arrange a trip drop. Want to go to your son's graduation? Sure, call the chief pilot. None of these are sick leave issues. These are issues that it would be very helpful to have a PPT system for, as the APD system is too limited.

tom14cat14

This is something I was thinking too. What did they give Delta Pilots during all of the concessions? They just took because times were bad. So now that times are good the pilots should be trying to do more taking than giving.

Weaselorlando

I don't question the importance of the Section 14 of our contract and the changes that the TA proposes. That's why I was asking the questions. UGBSM was gracious enough to give me his view of a potential scenario. I replied with my interpretation of that.

ghilis101
I may not have been clear. I have been sick, I just have not had enough occurrences to trigger or would have triggered a verification. I too hope we are all fortunate enough to not have to do it.

BobZ
I have always believed that if I had some reason not to fly then the company would back me up. If that didn't happen with you, then that is a problem. If things happen as you said, then I would definitely be working that up the chain.

BobZ you said:
"Its only fools like yourself who cloud the issue by advocating a personal standard of 'sick' that has nothing to do with the clear and unambiguous legal obligation of self certifying fitness for duty."

What have I clouded and what are my personal standards that you disagree with? All I said was that I thought the company's position about calling in sick for non illness reasons was not what sick leave was intended for. This is not my personal interpretation. Being sick and being able to sign a dispatch release are two different criteria. I never said they were the same.

UGBSM

Weaselorlando,

Again, you can't go to a medical doctor and have him write on the verification form "upset about his divorce, needs three days off".

Now, if you are upset about it and can't work for a month then maybe you need to see a psychologist or psychiatrist and you can try and get a doctor verification for that.

But c'mon, it is perfectly reasonable to need a little bit of time off during a personal crisis affecting your emotional and mental health that is none of the company's or DHS's business. I guess you have never been in that position. Lucky you. Yes, this requires the company to trust your good judgement, which they have always done in the past... but I guess that just is NOT going to happen anymore. Too bad.

notEnuf

The NC said call in sick if you have sinus or allergy issues that require Benadryl. It used to be 12hrs, no fly, now its 60hrs no fly. That's the stuff in Tylenol PM. If you get a cold in Jan. In MN, MI, NY or UT and normally use the "DM" cough suppressant to try to get some sleep to fly the next day, sorry that's 48hrs no fly instead of 12hrs now. ALPA aeromedical is the source.

How would Sedgwick handle that?

Weaselorlando

UGBSM "Again, you can't go to a medical doctor and have him write on the verification form "upset about his divorce, needs three days off".

I am not saying that you should not have the time off. I was suggesting that you are not entitled to sick leave to cover that time off. Where is it acceptable to call in sick because you are upset about a marital problem?

UGBSM "this requires the company to trust your good judgement, which they have always done in the past."

I have no personal experience that says the company is not trusting our good judgement like they have in the past. If others have, I hope they share that with us here so I learn from that and evolve my opinions.

UGBSM "But c'mon, it is perfectly reasonable to need a little bit of time off"

This is the way it has been here at Delta from the time I was hired. I guess the company(not me) feels that the goodwill that existed was being taken advantage of. What have been your personal examples that this has changed?

BobZ

The legal and professional obligation we operate under is the requirement to self report fitness for duty. Period.

What other occupation requires, at the start of every workday, the execution of such an all encompassing....and legally binding declaration?

The same professional judgment and integrity the airline, the pax, and the faa count on our exercising in every other aspect of aircraft operation.....is what every individual exercises in each fitness for duty determination.

We have an allocated number of paid sick leave hours in our pwa. I dont care if a pilot uses every second of that allocation every year if his individual determination was, in every instance, that he was not fit for duty. Its not my place to second guess that individuals call about their personal fitness.

Use none, or use it all......in either case...there is no 'abuse'.

If the cost of that allocation has become onerous....then reduce the allocation. Or offer lower cost alternatives for work absences.

Weaselorlando

Again, that's what I stated before you entered this conversation. We don't have a vehicle to reimburse us for personal time off that is not sick related. That should be addressed. Until then, you are either sick or not. It is a clear line. You are not entitled to sick leave if you are not sick. If you are not fit to fly for other reasons, then you should not fly but don't expect to be paid out of sick leave $.

notEnuf

Why is the NC claiming best sick leave in the biz with 240+ hours a year if you can't use them? What is the C2012 or TA definition of sick? I can't find it? If it doesn't define it, then each pilots decision about whether they are too sick to fly is subjective, yours included. There is probably an AC put out by the FAA for guidance. I'll try to find it.