The Case For Voting Yes - Multiple Parts
07-03-2015, 11:50 AM
#51
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 6
UGBSM
Thanks for the you views. I am not trying to nit-pick at you words or your examples but 2 things come to mind with your reply. You gave several examples of things going on in one's life that would be hard to get verified...
"Getting a divorce and have a huge fight with your wife before a trip and don't sleep a wink? Explain that one to a doctor. Get bad news about your parents, kids, or any trauma that understandably emotionally upsets you for a day?"
I think the company would say that none of those are justifiable reasons to use sick leave. Yes they are reasons not to fly, but maybe not to use sick leave. I think that I could get be removed from a flight with a call to my Chief Pilot but I wouldn't get paid. That may be your rub with this. I could certainly try to pick up additional flying the following day if there was flying available? We don't have a good method to get paid for personal time off that is not sick related. Maybe that's an area that needs improvement.
You also said ...
"it is undesirable and completely unnecessary to explain your personal private problems to a DHS company doctor or your chief pilot"
If I understand correctly, that there is no prescribed "verification Form" that your Dr. fills out with details about your personal private problems but only that he gives a general nature of the illness and a estimated return to work date. Also the TA takes the Chief Pilot out of the process unlike the current contract.
I look back on my years here at Delta and I have not had to verify any sick leave nor would I have had to if we had this in place earlier. I have been fortunate. But I can't say what the future will bring. I could see how having to verify sick leave could be a nuisance in a year where I had multiple health problems. But I would expect and hope that those occurrences would be rare. I agree that voluntary verification gives some flexibility to the process but if you are using sick leave legitimately, it's still somewhat of a hassle is it would be under the TA.
Thanks for the you views. I am not trying to nit-pick at you words or your examples but 2 things come to mind with your reply. You gave several examples of things going on in one's life that would be hard to get verified...
"Getting a divorce and have a huge fight with your wife before a trip and don't sleep a wink? Explain that one to a doctor. Get bad news about your parents, kids, or any trauma that understandably emotionally upsets you for a day?"
I think the company would say that none of those are justifiable reasons to use sick leave. Yes they are reasons not to fly, but maybe not to use sick leave. I think that I could get be removed from a flight with a call to my Chief Pilot but I wouldn't get paid. That may be your rub with this. I could certainly try to pick up additional flying the following day if there was flying available? We don't have a good method to get paid for personal time off that is not sick related. Maybe that's an area that needs improvement.
You also said ...
"it is undesirable and completely unnecessary to explain your personal private problems to a DHS company doctor or your chief pilot"
If I understand correctly, that there is no prescribed "verification Form" that your Dr. fills out with details about your personal private problems but only that he gives a general nature of the illness and a estimated return to work date. Also the TA takes the Chief Pilot out of the process unlike the current contract.
I look back on my years here at Delta and I have not had to verify any sick leave nor would I have had to if we had this in place earlier. I have been fortunate. But I can't say what the future will bring. I could see how having to verify sick leave could be a nuisance in a year where I had multiple health problems. But I would expect and hope that those occurrences would be rare. I agree that voluntary verification gives some flexibility to the process but if you are using sick leave legitimately, it's still somewhat of a hassle is it would be under the TA.
07-03-2015, 12:11 PM
#52
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
Weasel that's wonderful that you never get sick and I hope to have the same good fortune as you. If this TA passes you'll have a great deal being based in MCO again in your new virtual base (which by the way is not a win for us, the company can reopen MCO anytime they want including now under the current PWA). Please consider what you're selling for what you're buying. It's so one sided it needs to be fixed. This sick language is a big deal to us, they're trying to sneak it through using pilots like you who don't get sick. The pilot group is aging. This sick policy was the company's idea In c2012 and now they want relief. Don't give them relief for their mistakes unless they pay a hefty sum for it. They are not. They're getting this for pennies on the dollar. Sad.
07-03-2015, 12:56 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Weasel...
You live in some kind of alternate reality. Sure....as an fo today....go ahead and try and get a pd.
As a captain....i had just the case you cite...personal crisis with family....called scheds and informed them i would not be reporting for work.
Answer?.....thats not approved...we dont have staffing. Okay....well you do whatever you want...im not going to be there. next call i got was from cpo.....accusing me of refusing to report for work.
Both crewmembers now sign the release......it is a regulatory and legal requirement we certify all factors and fitness for duty. If a crewmember cannot do so......they are in the world of the faa....sick.
Its only fools like yourself who cloud the issue by advocating a personal standard of 'sick' that has nothing to do with the clear and unambiguous legal obligation of self certifying fitness for duty.
You live in some kind of alternate reality. Sure....as an fo today....go ahead and try and get a pd.
As a captain....i had just the case you cite...personal crisis with family....called scheds and informed them i would not be reporting for work.
Answer?.....thats not approved...we dont have staffing. Okay....well you do whatever you want...im not going to be there. next call i got was from cpo.....accusing me of refusing to report for work.
Both crewmembers now sign the release......it is a regulatory and legal requirement we certify all factors and fitness for duty. If a crewmember cannot do so......they are in the world of the faa....sick.
Its only fools like yourself who cloud the issue by advocating a personal standard of 'sick' that has nothing to do with the clear and unambiguous legal obligation of self certifying fitness for duty.
07-03-2015, 01:06 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD88
Posts: 456
07-03-2015, 01:29 PM
#55
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 36
For the under informed
Ok I am wrong that J/V does not directly lead to cost sharing of flights. It does lead to ATI which does lead to cost sharing or "metal neutral." Here is a link explaining how it is all connected: [post]http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/global-airline-alliances-transformed-by-antitrust-immunity-but-confronted-by-uncertainty--part-1-54369[/post]
07-03-2015, 01:37 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Well blue.....if you have a more appropriate adjective for an individual who projects a personal interpretation of fitness for duty as the accepted standard.....and then supports that assertion with a hypothetical reality...im willing to accept that substitution.
07-03-2015, 02:45 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
ERflyer,
I get it. It's all about the money for you and those that share your view. It looks as though you are a 767 captain so yes, it would be an attractive number for you by year 2018 if I read your post correctly - I wish I could have your optimism. Please realize that there are those, including me that will net less than $1000/ month more in the first couple years of the TA once the government and DALPA are done reaching their grubby hands into my paycheck. And the pilot demographic that will see those net increases less than $1000/month is growing in case you haven't noticed. But again, I understand your view from the top is all sunshine and blue skies.
Several folks on APC have stated that they oppose the TA based on QOL issues. I ask you and all the others salivating over the pay raises to consider that approach - think and act like a member of a UNION. You mention in a later post that you're viewing the TA from your own individual lens. Please widen your aperture to the pilot group as a whole - it looks like you are a 767 captain and unless you've made some really poor life choices, you shouldn't be hurting for money so badly that you need these TA raises.
This TA sets a bad precedent for future DAL contracts and the industry as a whole. You, as an international captain, should realize the detrimental effects that the new JV language will have. And once the top end scope crumbles, career progression takes a step backwards for everyone on the seniority list regardless of whether they expect to fly wide bodies or not. If the company can cram a TA that has lower raises and more concessions than C2012 while the company makes profits that are orders of magnitude greater, what can our expectations be in the future when the economic picture isn't so rosy? I don't like the likely answer to that question and am willing to forgo the less than impressive raises and any NMB/ PEB boogy man to stand up for a QOL that already falls short of what it should be. Again, I ask you to consider the TA as a member of a UNION.
Happy 4th of July.
I get it. It's all about the money for you and those that share your view. It looks as though you are a 767 captain so yes, it would be an attractive number for you by year 2018 if I read your post correctly - I wish I could have your optimism. Please realize that there are those, including me that will net less than $1000/ month more in the first couple years of the TA once the government and DALPA are done reaching their grubby hands into my paycheck. And the pilot demographic that will see those net increases less than $1000/month is growing in case you haven't noticed. But again, I understand your view from the top is all sunshine and blue skies.
Several folks on APC have stated that they oppose the TA based on QOL issues. I ask you and all the others salivating over the pay raises to consider that approach - think and act like a member of a UNION. You mention in a later post that you're viewing the TA from your own individual lens. Please widen your aperture to the pilot group as a whole - it looks like you are a 767 captain and unless you've made some really poor life choices, you shouldn't be hurting for money so badly that you need these TA raises.
This TA sets a bad precedent for future DAL contracts and the industry as a whole. You, as an international captain, should realize the detrimental effects that the new JV language will have. And once the top end scope crumbles, career progression takes a step backwards for everyone on the seniority list regardless of whether they expect to fly wide bodies or not. If the company can cram a TA that has lower raises and more concessions than C2012 while the company makes profits that are orders of magnitude greater, what can our expectations be in the future when the economic picture isn't so rosy? I don't like the likely answer to that question and am willing to forgo the less than impressive raises and any NMB/ PEB boogy man to stand up for a QOL that already falls short of what it should be. Again, I ask you to consider the TA as a member of a UNION.
Happy 4th of July.
Have a Happy 4th!
07-03-2015, 03:15 PM
#59
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
This TA has give and take like all negotiations. Some things are tightened up and we also received a few things. It's more money than last time, $1.1B, and I think everyone will do quite well with this TA. It'll be 20% more than American if profit sharing stays the same as this year. FO's will continue to have multiple green slips, as well as quick upgrades as retirements kick in at 500+ per year. The year I leave it's 800+ retirements (okay, one more TA from now). Ugh.
Have a Happy 4th!
Have a Happy 4th!
07-03-2015, 03:21 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 329
Sat down after the road show and found out we do not as of yet have a verification form agreed open between Dalpa and the company. This could be very bad hoop to jump thru if the verification process is horrid. Just one more thing left off the section 14 sick bullet points. Voting NO
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