The Case For Voting Yes - Multiple Parts
07-03-2015, 05:47 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,464
The first 3 posts all in a row. Nice coordination. The 3 yes promoters most active now. Where's sink?
1 - false, more pay is true but rates are not total compensation, profit sharing lost
2 - huge overreach administered by Sedgwick
3 - a pay concession for FOs that rates can't make up for, I had one day ever at 3X typical are 2X (rerouted on a greenslip into a day off.) And I'm 50% in my seat.
4 - scope large and small
5 - B scale
6 - TLV up (QOL)
1 - false, more pay is true but rates are not total compensation, profit sharing lost
2 - huge overreach administered by Sedgwick
3 - a pay concession for FOs that rates can't make up for, I had one day ever at 3X typical are 2X (rerouted on a greenslip into a day off.) And I'm 50% in my seat.
4 - scope large and small
5 - B scale
6 - TLV up (QOL)
Last edited by notEnuf; 07-03-2015 at 06:04 AM.
07-03-2015, 05:48 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
7ER you make some valid points, but are also missing some huge holes that need to be filled and can be filled with voting down this TA. I would most appreciate your opinion of the J/V & profit sharing reduction. This is how I look at it: Our J/V partners need Delta's help; the way the program works on flights that share a J/V code number Delta is responsible for up to 50% of the cost of that flight no matter what the paint says on the side of the plane. If that flight makes money then Delta get a cut if not we eat the loss. AF&KLM for political reason that do not need to be discussed are forced to fly airplanes that make it difficult to turn a profit. That forces them and Delta to ensure the profitability of those airplanes. How is that being accomplished? Through the change in our J/V section of the TA. I am OK with that, we do need them as much as they need us symbiotic relationship and all. However, we still need to make sure we get paid for helping out our partners. How can we get profits from a plane flow by a foreign county? Profit sharing!!!! This TA is both cutting off our hands and our feet. This WILL affect every pilot regardless of seat or seniority, you will not get $4,400 extra each month if you are displaced or flying shorter legs across the "pond," and you not see your sacrifice returned to you in the form of profit sharing. This will be a huge unintended consequence that will have most pilots saying "gee if I had known that I would have voted NO."
07-03-2015, 05:57 AM
#33
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: fifi flyer
Posts: 573
The new disability account is practically worthless. If you can even bank that much, you get only 40 hours AFTER using up all sick time (3.5 months), and AFTER using up all DPMA (12 months).
BFD!
How many pilots have an illness or injury that lasts over a year and a quarter? Its a very, very, small percentage that will ever see even part of this benefit.
07-03-2015, 06:10 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,464
Just one question. We know senior people are off enjoying the 4th weekend. How many black shirts are on FPL and selling this weekend? (while staying at home) Is there a ripe target market on the internet and in the lounges this weekend?
07-03-2015, 06:10 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
[QUOTE=ERflyer;1921112]I do not see a quick resolution as I thought before and surprisingly (or maybe not due to certain agendas) many on here DO NOT want a quick resolution. Some want to clean house and/or want to vote in DPA as I forgo some serious coin - for a year. Maybe two. In part at least, much of the shrill hyperbole on here has convinced me that voting yes is a better choice. Good job.
Do I think we were still manipulated and played? Somewhat, but we did extract value. Do I wish sick leave had remain unchanged? Yes, but it's not really that much different. Did this TA fall short of my survey? Yes, however, the TA before us is what it is. It is real money and at this time will pay 20% more than our largest competitor. This TA still has significant net pay far above our peers. Reality is a *****. Pay was #1 on the survey. Here it is.
[QUOTE]
I'm in no way a DPA supporter, but am also in no hurry for a quick resolution. Why? Because, in my opinion, we have a pretty good contract. C2012 got us a lot of things we wanted, with the glaring exception of appropriate pay rates. The short duration of C2012, we were told, would position us for a big pay bump in 2015, when Delta was expected to be very profitable.
If pay was #1 on the survey, it's because we fixed a number of things with our last contract. Now we're expected to roll back the improvements from previous contracts--improvements that we paid for, by the way-- just for a small pay raise?!?
As a side note, I'm absolutely dumbfounded that you feel that you've been manipulated and played by management-- and you're seemingly okay with it!
Do I think we were still manipulated and played? Somewhat, but we did extract value. Do I wish sick leave had remain unchanged? Yes, but it's not really that much different. Did this TA fall short of my survey? Yes, however, the TA before us is what it is. It is real money and at this time will pay 20% more than our largest competitor. This TA still has significant net pay far above our peers. Reality is a *****. Pay was #1 on the survey. Here it is.
[QUOTE]
I'm in no way a DPA supporter, but am also in no hurry for a quick resolution. Why? Because, in my opinion, we have a pretty good contract. C2012 got us a lot of things we wanted, with the glaring exception of appropriate pay rates. The short duration of C2012, we were told, would position us for a big pay bump in 2015, when Delta was expected to be very profitable.
If pay was #1 on the survey, it's because we fixed a number of things with our last contract. Now we're expected to roll back the improvements from previous contracts--improvements that we paid for, by the way-- just for a small pay raise?!?
As a side note, I'm absolutely dumbfounded that you feel that you've been manipulated and played by management-- and you're seemingly okay with it!
07-03-2015, 06:28 AM
#36
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: fifi flyer
Posts: 573
- FO OE trips drops are a cost of doing business. period.
- I am not paying the company to buy new jets. And 50 seat RJs are going away regardless.
- Losing voluntary verification to protect unverified time is THE KEY. If we lose this I would rather have a sick bank/PPT system like everyone else.
- New disability bank is practically worthless.
Richard says there is no better deal? We'll see about that after UPS, FDX, and SWA come in with raises! Meantime, I will get 3.B.4 raises, JV payouts, Profit sharing, and eventually retro pay.
Bottom line, I would rather work under our current PWA than this TA. Simple. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
- I am not paying the company to buy new jets. And 50 seat RJs are going away regardless.
- Losing voluntary verification to protect unverified time is THE KEY. If we lose this I would rather have a sick bank/PPT system like everyone else.
- New disability bank is practically worthless.
Richard says there is no better deal? We'll see about that after UPS, FDX, and SWA come in with raises! Meantime, I will get 3.B.4 raises, JV payouts, Profit sharing, and eventually retro pay.
Bottom line, I would rather work under our current PWA than this TA. Simple. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
07-03-2015, 07:24 AM
#37
Snake
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 242
They could give the non-pilot employees a five percent raise on December 25, 2015 - Merry Christmas! - and it wouldn't trigger 3 B.4 BECAUSE it's before the raises at UAL and AAL.
Meanwhile, 3 B.5 expires on the New Year, and DAL could rely on bonuses and lump sum payouts while we grind our gears.
07-03-2015, 07:49 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
They could give the non-pilot employees a five percent raise on December 25, 2015 - Merry Christmas! - and it wouldn't trigger 3 B.4 BECAUSE it's before the raises at UAL and AAL.
Meanwhile, 3 B.5 expires on the New Year, and DAL could rely on bonuses and lump sum payouts while we grind our gears.
Meanwhile, 3 B.5 expires on the New Year, and DAL could rely on bonuses and lump sum payouts while we grind our gears.
I will say you are right, it could happen. Do I think it will? No.
Denny
07-03-2015, 07:59 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,614
Denny, the company can do a lot of things. Frankly I would be surprised if they don't give out a raise early. They could as a example take delivery of the E190's and have Alaska operate them. They could stop releasing any FO's from any IOE trip. This of course would mean a full scale war between management and the pilots. I know some on here crave exactly that but I have never seen a pilot group come out winners in wars. Usually they end up huge losers. At best they break even.
07-03-2015, 08:33 AM
#40
Snake
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 242
To the second question, Aside from the dust-up at Allegiant, I do not know, and I cannot see how it would be relevant if any other airline had. Because it's in the contract; the very same contract that some pilots are happy to maintain past its amendable date through rejection of the tentative agreement.
I'm not voting yes because this is a perfect agreement. I knew we wouldn't get to a deal without giving the company a reason to sign it, and what I calculate as my best alternative to the negotiated agreement is worth significantly less than this TA.
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