The Case For Voting Yes - Multiple Parts
07-04-2015, 06:26 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
I can see it now, incentive bonus to offset pay cuts to help out the company.
07-04-2015, 10:05 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Sorry, but I don't care. If there are lots of greenslips it means the airline is understaffed. I want it staffed correctly, because then it makes for a better QOL for all. If the issue were simply voting to ensure the gravy train stops I'd vote yea in a NY second. You're getting 4 greenslips a month, and I can't drop my crappy allnighter because there is no coverage.
07-04-2015, 10:22 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Bender.....delta has never staffed the airline adequately to allow what you suggest. Delta will never staff the airline for what you suggest.
the only time this airline has been staffed 'adequately' in your example...is when we were headed to a furlough.
Im guessing the same reason we now cant hire and train fast enough is the same reason we have always run in what you would undoubtedly call an understaffed condition...
the only time this airline has been staffed 'adequately' in your example...is when we were headed to a furlough.
Im guessing the same reason we now cant hire and train fast enough is the same reason we have always run in what you would undoubtedly call an understaffed condition...
07-05-2015, 02:52 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Road construction signholder
Posts: 2,433
Sorry, but I don't care. If there are lots of greenslips it means the airline is understaffed. I want it staffed correctly, because then it makes for a better QOL for all. If the issue were simply voting to ensure the gravy train stops I'd vote yea in a NY second. You're getting 4 greenslips a month, and I can't drop my crappy allnighter because there is no coverage.
How many times have you read "greenslip *****s" or "greed$lips" or something similar?
Now the same guys are whining that an improved reserves required formula (which makes your and my life easier) is now a "bad" thing because GS will go down and there will be more reserves on the weekend.
And yet...isn't that a good thing? (You probably agree with me that it IS in fact a good thing, and yet a handful of the no voters will actually spin in as a bad thing).
There is enough bad in this TA to warrant a no vote without making stuff up, or just being plain wrong about things. There was actually a bullet point--completely 100% wrong, but when you justify your angry no vote why let facts get in the way?--that stated that removing maintenance from the reroute "beyond the company's control" was somehow a bad thing. The poster didn't even realize that that provision actually increased the number of times the company would have to pay extra for reroutes and not the other way round.
07-05-2015, 03:00 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Road construction signholder
Posts: 2,433
Bender.....delta has never staffed the airline adequately to allow what you suggest. Delta will never staff the airline for what you suggest.
the only time this airline has been staffed 'adequately' in your example...is when we were headed to a furlough.
Im guessing the same reason we now cant hire and train fast enough is the same reason we have always run in what you would undoubtedly call an understaffed condition...
the only time this airline has been staffed 'adequately' in your example...is when we were headed to a furlough.
Im guessing the same reason we now cant hire and train fast enough is the same reason we have always run in what you would undoubtedly call an understaffed condition...
Some (7ERB or 73NB) have GS galore seemingly for the indefinite future. However others are staffed otherwise. Just look at ATL 320B. Every day has twice the reserves available versus required (if not more) for the rest of the month of July. Anyone can drop any trip any time they wish.
The company seeks a staffing level somewhere between those extremes, but with our ever-changing network allocations of aircraft it becomes difficult. There is a cost there, but it is a cost that the company is willing to pay as we generate a lot more revenue with that model.
07-05-2015, 03:39 AM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
Management Plans If TA Fails
In case the TA is voted down what are the possible paths management could take?
1 - The number one priority in regards to other employee groups has always been to keep out other employee unions. The pilot rejection of the TA will not be rewarded under any circumstance.
2 - Delayed reengagement for 2-3 years. Go through the motion of reengagement but nothing will move toward a new TA.
3 - 3.B.4 is not triggered.
Employee "raises" are to be the increasing profit sharing payout. Their increased profit sharing increases their wages about 4-5% a year.
4 - 3.B.5 is not triggered. "Note: [3.B.5] will terminate on December, 31, 2015". Employees are given "bonuses" equal to 4-5% of annual wages each year in addition to profit sharing. If profits decrease more "bonuses" will be awarded to other employee groups.
5 - 3.B.4 is not triggered.
Employees are given raises but it is only to 29% of employees each year. (30% is what triggers 3.B.4). The raises are 12-15% of W-2 and given every 3 years.
The above are "the new triad" strategy for other employee W-2 increases to eliminate triggering 3.B.4 and are blended together in conjunction with each other. Additionally, increased benefits could also be added and also not trigger 3.B.4. January 1, 2016 3.B.5 is a non-issue.
6 - Pilot hiring will be maintained at 135 a month and will increase to 150 a month if feasible. This far outstrips retirements. Pilot staffing shortages disappear in 12 months and green slips become a rarity. There are excess pilots during the winter but average copilot pay decreases by 25% as green slips become a thing of the past. Some pilots see a 35% decrease in pay as green slips decrease to a goal of 50-100 per month for the entire airline.
7 - As pilot staffing is increased more pilots are pushed onto reserve during winter months. Reserve pay is at least 6% less. Pilot efficiency decreases but is a reasonable tradeoff for #1 above.
8 - Management affirms that it is cheaper to overstaff pilot categories. Open time disappears across most categories making filling up for the month difficult. Individual pilot pay decreases by 5-10%.
9 - The increased pilot hiring and staffing will be easily funded by the 8% and 6% ( a now nonexistent 14.5% in a span of six months ) increase in pilot pay that was expected to be paid under the TA. During the first year $150 million from the rejected TA can be spent to increase pilot hiring. New hires are cheap.
10 - The other $220 million per year in savings from the rejected pilot TA will be returned to stockholders.
11 - Management will simply explain that they offered to pay their pilots 22-24% more than American to the NMB. The NMB understandably puts Delta on the back burner. They're busy with several other airlines and several other non-airline corporation's labor issues. Quite frankly the NMB is busy and Delta is just something else to do added to the list. The bottom of the list.
For reference Linda A. Puchala, one of three members of the NMB, makes a salary of $155,000 a year. Understandably she has little sympathy for Delta pilots as every pilot (except 190/95 FO) over 12 years would have made more than her with this TA.
12 - A quick resolution is a possibility that may be pursued. A slim possibility resulting in less money paid out to pilots and not greatly changed work rule improvements for pilots. Either way the new TA would no doubt be attacked by many pilots as - once again - less than perfect or not achieving "restoration". Pilot disunity has been achieved as one of management's negotiating aims. Bottom line: any new TA will save DAL money.
In case the TA is voted down what are the possible paths management could take?
1 - The number one priority in regards to other employee groups has always been to keep out other employee unions. The pilot rejection of the TA will not be rewarded under any circumstance.
2 - Delayed reengagement for 2-3 years. Go through the motion of reengagement but nothing will move toward a new TA.
3 - 3.B.4 is not triggered.
Employee "raises" are to be the increasing profit sharing payout. Their increased profit sharing increases their wages about 4-5% a year.
4 - 3.B.5 is not triggered. "Note: [3.B.5] will terminate on December, 31, 2015". Employees are given "bonuses" equal to 4-5% of annual wages each year in addition to profit sharing. If profits decrease more "bonuses" will be awarded to other employee groups.
5 - 3.B.4 is not triggered.
Employees are given raises but it is only to 29% of employees each year. (30% is what triggers 3.B.4). The raises are 12-15% of W-2 and given every 3 years.
The above are "the new triad" strategy for other employee W-2 increases to eliminate triggering 3.B.4 and are blended together in conjunction with each other. Additionally, increased benefits could also be added and also not trigger 3.B.4. January 1, 2016 3.B.5 is a non-issue.
6 - Pilot hiring will be maintained at 135 a month and will increase to 150 a month if feasible. This far outstrips retirements. Pilot staffing shortages disappear in 12 months and green slips become a rarity. There are excess pilots during the winter but average copilot pay decreases by 25% as green slips become a thing of the past. Some pilots see a 35% decrease in pay as green slips decrease to a goal of 50-100 per month for the entire airline.
7 - As pilot staffing is increased more pilots are pushed onto reserve during winter months. Reserve pay is at least 6% less. Pilot efficiency decreases but is a reasonable tradeoff for #1 above.
8 - Management affirms that it is cheaper to overstaff pilot categories. Open time disappears across most categories making filling up for the month difficult. Individual pilot pay decreases by 5-10%.
9 - The increased pilot hiring and staffing will be easily funded by the 8% and 6% ( a now nonexistent 14.5% in a span of six months ) increase in pilot pay that was expected to be paid under the TA. During the first year $150 million from the rejected TA can be spent to increase pilot hiring. New hires are cheap.
10 - The other $220 million per year in savings from the rejected pilot TA will be returned to stockholders.
11 - Management will simply explain that they offered to pay their pilots 22-24% more than American to the NMB. The NMB understandably puts Delta on the back burner. They're busy with several other airlines and several other non-airline corporation's labor issues. Quite frankly the NMB is busy and Delta is just something else to do added to the list. The bottom of the list.
For reference Linda A. Puchala, one of three members of the NMB, makes a salary of $155,000 a year. Understandably she has little sympathy for Delta pilots as every pilot (except 190/95 FO) over 12 years would have made more than her with this TA.
12 - A quick resolution is a possibility that may be pursued. A slim possibility resulting in less money paid out to pilots and not greatly changed work rule improvements for pilots. Either way the new TA would no doubt be attacked by many pilots as - once again - less than perfect or not achieving "restoration". Pilot disunity has been achieved as one of management's negotiating aims. Bottom line: any new TA will save DAL money.
07-05-2015, 03:45 AM
#108
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Meh. You didn't address the strategic value of showing management we have the will to say "no." It can't be defined on a spreadsheet. But it's a big hammer.
Who knows, you may be right about some of those things....IF we don't drive radical personnel and process changes at dalpa after this POS is rejected.
But first, we've got to vote it down.
Who knows, you may be right about some of those things....IF we don't drive radical personnel and process changes at dalpa after this POS is rejected.
But first, we've got to vote it down.
Last edited by Purple Drank; 07-05-2015 at 04:01 AM.
07-05-2015, 03:57 AM
#109
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
From the Council 34 (UAL) June 24 meeting minutes:
Lowering the bar.
DELTA TA – The DAL MEC accepted a tentative agreement (TA) by a senatorial vote of 11-8. The TA is now out for DAL membership ratification. Voting ends and the results will be disclosed on July 10.
After weighing the pros and cons of the TA, it is difficult to say if it actually moves the bar any higher. Instead, a compelling argument can be made that the bar will be lowered because the TA is rife with concessions in quality of life (QOL), healthcare, and possibly even job security. It might be a reasonable agreement if just the profit sharing formula was traded for higher hourly rates, but it is self-evident that far more than that was sold.
During this time of unprecedented airline profitability, it is puzzling why the DAL MEC opened early to only settle for a cost-neutral contract at best. There are valid arguments about the time value of money. However, these can be countered with equally valid arguments on the value of job security and QOL. The UAL MEC aims to get a briefing from the DAL Negotiating Committee if the TA passes membership ratification.
After weighing the pros and cons of the TA, it is difficult to say if it actually moves the bar any higher. Instead, a compelling argument can be made that the bar will be lowered because the TA is rife with concessions in quality of life (QOL), healthcare, and possibly even job security. It might be a reasonable agreement if just the profit sharing formula was traded for higher hourly rates, but it is self-evident that far more than that was sold.
During this time of unprecedented airline profitability, it is puzzling why the DAL MEC opened early to only settle for a cost-neutral contract at best. There are valid arguments about the time value of money. However, these can be countered with equally valid arguments on the value of job security and QOL. The UAL MEC aims to get a briefing from the DAL Negotiating Committee if the TA passes membership ratification.
07-05-2015, 04:22 AM
#110
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 6
U-man......
This conversation should be highly illuminating to anyone who sees no problem with the ta.
Some individual....just like weasel.....is going to sit in judgement and tell you what THEY think qualifies in your personal case as being 'sick'.
Ive already provided him a personal....and as i subsequently learned...not an isolatd case of calling in 'unfit' to fly....but not 'sick'.....and his solution was 'harrumph, harrumph....i would be taking that up the chain'......
Over the years i have been at work with crewmembers who had no business being there. Some had physical manifestations of illness.....and some did not.....but it would have been in everyones best interest if they had simply reported 'sick'.
This conversation should be highly illuminating to anyone who sees no problem with the ta.
Some individual....just like weasel.....is going to sit in judgement and tell you what THEY think qualifies in your personal case as being 'sick'.
Ive already provided him a personal....and as i subsequently learned...not an isolatd case of calling in 'unfit' to fly....but not 'sick'.....and his solution was 'harrumph, harrumph....i would be taking that up the chain'......
Over the years i have been at work with crewmembers who had no business being there. Some had physical manifestations of illness.....and some did not.....but it would have been in everyones best interest if they had simply reported 'sick'.
I was able to find the reference to FLT OPS policy direction and the FOM. IF you are not fit to fly a rotation like we were discussing. Again, this is in reference to the original discussion with UGBSM when he said:
UGBSM - "Getting a divorce and have a huge fight with your wife before a trip and don't sleep a wink? Explain that one to a doctor."
And you said:
BOBZ - "As a captain....i had just the case you cite...personal crisis with family....called scheds and informed them i would not be reporting for work.
Answer?.....thats not approved...we dont have staffing. Okay....well you do whatever you want...im not going to be there. next call i got was from cpo.....accusing me of refusing to report for work.
Both crewmembers now sign the release......it is a regulatory and legal requirement we certify all factors and fitness for duty. If a crewmember cannot do so......they are in the world of the faa....sick."
You said that you and others have faced push back from crew scheduling when you tried to notify them that you were not fit to fly. Your experience may not fit this scenario, but this is basically what UGBSM and I were discussing.
Could there be other scenarios that fall outside the Fatigued and Sick areas? Sure. A good discussion of what other pilots have personally experienced is helpful to all of us. Please don't characterize my highlighting Delta policy into judging anyone.
Someone asked me when I was hired to put my comments in context. I was hired in 1991.
From Fatigued Call and Report Protocol
Crew Tracking (CT) / Crew Scheduling (CS) - Fatigued Call Procedures
The use of sick leave is not an appropriate recourse for fatigued calls.
“Group” fatigued calls are not accepted.
Do not discuss the implications to the operation or attempt to pressure the pilot
to continue.
Do not discuss pay implications. If the pilot asks, refer them to the FOM
Chapter 3.2 Fatigue reference
Chief Pilot – Fatigued Call and Report Procedures
The use of sick leave is not an appropriate recourse for fatigued calls.
“Group” fatigued calls are not accepted.
Do not discuss the implications to the operation or attempt to pressure the pilot
to continue.
And this from the FOM:
"It is the pilot’s responsibility to be properly rested for each phase of the rotation;
however, if circumstances prevent this, no Delta pilot should feel pressured to fly
when not properly rested. A pilot who is fatigued should immediately notify Delta
if unable to start or complete a rotation."
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
