LEC rep who voted for MEMRAT might vote NO
06-25-2015, 06:56 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 328
sounds like I struck a nerve.
"Obstacle?" You think Delta pilots voting no are an obstacle? That says a lot about your agenda.
There is no coordinated "no" campaign. It's a grassroots uprising decrying the totally inadequate and insulting product the "union" produced 7 months prior to the amendable date that addresses every single one of managment's problems....and only creates more problems for us. You seem to equate a "no" vote with some kind of nefarious conspircacy, when in fact, Delta pilots are simply unwilling to bend over to give DALPA a free pass for bailing out the company.
Perhaps this group has examined the TA and determined it's worthy of a "no" vote. That would be quite an "obstacle" for DALPA, I suppose.
I haven't posted anything untrue about this TA. But let's talk about that pesky "responsibility to the truth." Across the internet; in the lounges; and at roadshows, we've seen dozens of instances where P2P or DALPA admin types cherry-pick, mislead, and obfuscate the contents of this POS. I guess you'll just give them a pass.
You're damn right I'm committed to a "specific outcome." It's called a contract befitting our contributions and the company's runaway profitability. And the "organization" I'm advocating for is the Delta pilot group.
Speaking of committment to a "process," do you by chance own a black polo shirt without any logo?
"Obstacle?" You think Delta pilots voting no are an obstacle? That says a lot about your agenda.
There is no coordinated "no" campaign. It's a grassroots uprising decrying the totally inadequate and insulting product the "union" produced 7 months prior to the amendable date that addresses every single one of managment's problems....and only creates more problems for us. You seem to equate a "no" vote with some kind of nefarious conspircacy, when in fact, Delta pilots are simply unwilling to bend over to give DALPA a free pass for bailing out the company.
Perhaps this group has examined the TA and determined it's worthy of a "no" vote. That would be quite an "obstacle" for DALPA, I suppose.
I haven't posted anything untrue about this TA. But let's talk about that pesky "responsibility to the truth." Across the internet; in the lounges; and at roadshows, we've seen dozens of instances where P2P or DALPA admin types cherry-pick, mislead, and obfuscate the contents of this POS. I guess you'll just give them a pass.
You're damn right I'm committed to a "specific outcome." It's called a contract befitting our contributions and the company's runaway profitability. And the "organization" I'm advocating for is the Delta pilot group.
Speaking of committment to a "process," do you by chance own a black polo shirt without any logo?
For the record, I have NOT renewed my DPA card yet...
I won't rest until we RECALL every rep that voted for MEMRAT.
I won't rest until the DLAPA insiders with full time jobs (the shadow MEC) are BANNED from union jobs.
I'm still for trying to fix DALPA from within...but we're going to need to burn the house down and rebuild a better one.
If we can't do that, then let's find a new house.
06-25-2015, 07:29 PM
#74
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 7
I'm sorry, it sounds like I struck a nerve too. You're getting a bit indignant, for a guy that was on a personal attack two posts ago.
I'll make my case again. I think the evidence in your posts is that you're selling candidates, hard, and you've been open about pushing the DPA, hard... up until recently. Now you attack people. You've been extraordinarily suspicious of anyone with less than a thousand posts that isn't going nuts against ALPA, but somehow you're unfazed by dozens of new posters parroting each other, and cross-pollinating the web with orthodox, approved materials.
I haven't committed to a vote yet, but if I vote yes, it might be because the union is about to tear itself completely apart, no matter the outcome of the vote. DPA/DPA-adjacent groups asking guys to go to road-shows, and present rehearsed speeches, and "charm" voters in the lounges, Delta pilots filming other Delta pilots, putting out approved candidates, candidates needing recall, poling voters, all that's a bit over-the-top, and a little obvious. Problem is, everything was started about one event out of phase. The political season was opened weeks before events warranted. It's obvious. By now, there is hardly a person voting yes, or even an undecided, that would run the gauntlet of ridicule and abuse that they'd be subject to in these parts. In a sense, you're almost a victim of your own success, in turning APC into a gigantic circle-jerk. You've been too good at alienating every neutral, and pushing every lurker away. It's becoming a liability, and it looks to me like it's making you nervous.
I've been saying for years this is a power struggle, and the event/TA/controversy of the day is simply the background. There are some very good people getting caught in the middle who are voting no. I respect them, and the yes voters, and the undecided because I don't find this to be an easy choice personally.
I think the smart move would be to have the courage to let everyone speak, without having a melt-down over everything that doesn't fit your views.
I'll make my case again. I think the evidence in your posts is that you're selling candidates, hard, and you've been open about pushing the DPA, hard... up until recently. Now you attack people. You've been extraordinarily suspicious of anyone with less than a thousand posts that isn't going nuts against ALPA, but somehow you're unfazed by dozens of new posters parroting each other, and cross-pollinating the web with orthodox, approved materials.
I haven't committed to a vote yet, but if I vote yes, it might be because the union is about to tear itself completely apart, no matter the outcome of the vote. DPA/DPA-adjacent groups asking guys to go to road-shows, and present rehearsed speeches, and "charm" voters in the lounges, Delta pilots filming other Delta pilots, putting out approved candidates, candidates needing recall, poling voters, all that's a bit over-the-top, and a little obvious. Problem is, everything was started about one event out of phase. The political season was opened weeks before events warranted. It's obvious. By now, there is hardly a person voting yes, or even an undecided, that would run the gauntlet of ridicule and abuse that they'd be subject to in these parts. In a sense, you're almost a victim of your own success, in turning APC into a gigantic circle-jerk. You've been too good at alienating every neutral, and pushing every lurker away. It's becoming a liability, and it looks to me like it's making you nervous.
I've been saying for years this is a power struggle, and the event/TA/controversy of the day is simply the background. There are some very good people getting caught in the middle who are voting no. I respect them, and the yes voters, and the undecided because I don't find this to be an easy choice personally.
I think the smart move would be to have the courage to let everyone speak, without having a melt-down over everything that doesn't fit your views.
Buy this man a Coca Cola from the ATL Crew Room Concession stand!
06-25-2015, 07:34 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
I'm sorry, it sounds like I struck a nerve too. You're getting a bit indignant, for a guy that was on a personal attack two posts ago.
I'll make my case again. I think the evidence in your posts is that you're selling candidates, hard, and you've been open about pushing the DPA, hard... up until recently. Now you attack people. You've been extraordinarily suspicious of anyone with less than a thousand posts that isn't going nuts against ALPA, but somehow you're unfazed by dozens of new posters parroting each other, and cross-pollinating the web with orthodox, approved materials.
I haven't committed to a vote yet, but if I vote yes, it might be because the union is about to tear itself completely apart, no matter the outcome of the vote. DPA/DPA-adjacent groups asking guys to go to road-shows, and present rehearsed speeches, and "charm" voters in the lounges, Delta pilots filming other Delta pilots, putting out approved candidates, candidates needing recall, poling voters, all that's a bit over-the-top, and a little obvious. Problem is, everything was started about one event out of phase. The political season was opened weeks before events warranted. It's obvious. By now, there is hardly a person voting yes, or even an undecided, that would run the gauntlet of ridicule and abuse that they'd be subject to in these parts. In a sense, you're almost a victim of your own success, in turning APC into a gigantic circle-jerk. You've been too good at alienating every neutral, and pushing every lurker away. It's becoming a liability, and it looks to me like it's making you nervous.
I've been saying for years this is a power struggle, and the event/TA/controversy of the day is simply the background. There are some very good people getting caught in the middle who are voting no. I respect them, and the yes voters, and the undecided because I don't find this to be an easy choice personally.
I think the smart move would be to have the courage to let everyone speak, without having a melt-down over everything that doesn't fit your views.
I'll make my case again. I think the evidence in your posts is that you're selling candidates, hard, and you've been open about pushing the DPA, hard... up until recently. Now you attack people. You've been extraordinarily suspicious of anyone with less than a thousand posts that isn't going nuts against ALPA, but somehow you're unfazed by dozens of new posters parroting each other, and cross-pollinating the web with orthodox, approved materials.
I haven't committed to a vote yet, but if I vote yes, it might be because the union is about to tear itself completely apart, no matter the outcome of the vote. DPA/DPA-adjacent groups asking guys to go to road-shows, and present rehearsed speeches, and "charm" voters in the lounges, Delta pilots filming other Delta pilots, putting out approved candidates, candidates needing recall, poling voters, all that's a bit over-the-top, and a little obvious. Problem is, everything was started about one event out of phase. The political season was opened weeks before events warranted. It's obvious. By now, there is hardly a person voting yes, or even an undecided, that would run the gauntlet of ridicule and abuse that they'd be subject to in these parts. In a sense, you're almost a victim of your own success, in turning APC into a gigantic circle-jerk. You've been too good at alienating every neutral, and pushing every lurker away. It's becoming a liability, and it looks to me like it's making you nervous.
I've been saying for years this is a power struggle, and the event/TA/controversy of the day is simply the background. There are some very good people getting caught in the middle who are voting no. I respect them, and the yes voters, and the undecided because I don't find this to be an easy choice personally.
I think the smart move would be to have the courage to let everyone speak, without having a melt-down over everything that doesn't fit your views.
Say what you want about the TA but personal attacks will simply scare people away and seek out other sources of information like the lounge TA presentations or Negotiators' Notepads and Contrails Memos. Those sources are calm, reasoned, logical, and well explained. They look reasonable and professional. Something that one would want to read to understand something about this TA. They make sense.
Contrast that to here where 90% of the information is hyperbole and overkill. Add in more than a few personal attacks and which way would the undecided logical mind turn?
One does not have to resort to extremes to lay out the reason why this TA is not a good choice for Delta pilots. Still, it is not an easy choice.
But consider:
1 - This TA does not protect Delta pilots as much as the contract we now have. Sick leave, scope, and productivity are in large part concessionary. Do we need to give large concessions while wildly profitable?
2 - The net gain in pay for this TA is much less than last time.
3 - It's obvious we have been out maneuvered.
4 - Sometimes you have to stand firm for what you want.
5 - The sun will rise and we will have another TA with a chance to vote.
For those who are undecided, ignore the hyperbole from both sides, look at all the facts and compartmentalize. If you do that you'll come to a better answer. Whether it's yes or no it's not the end of the world.
06-25-2015, 09:04 PM
#77
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
I agree with some of what Sink r8 is saying. This and some other forums have become echo chambers for no voters and they drive away anyone who is looking for a reasoned balanced view of pretty much any topic. The latest and largest is of course the TA.
Say what you want about the TA but personal attacks will simply scare people away and seek out other sources of information like the lounge TA presentations or Negotiators' Notepads and Contrails Memos. Those sources are calm, reasoned, logical, and well explained. They look reasonable and professional. Something that one would want to read to understand something about this TA. They make sense.
Contrast that to here where 90% of the information is hyperbole and overkill. Add in more than a few personal attacks and which way would the undecided logical mind turn?
One does not have to resort to extremes to lay out the reason why this TA is not a good choice for Delta pilots. Still, it is not an easy choice.
But consider:
1 - This TA does not protect Delta pilots as much as the contract we now have. Sick leave, scope, and productivity are in large part concessionary. Do we need to give large concessions while wildly profitable?
2 - The net gain in pay for this TA is much less than last time.
3 - It's obvious we have been out maneuvered.
4 - Sometimes you have to stand firm for what you want.
5 - The sun will rise and we will have another TA with a chance to vote.
For those who are undecided, ignore the hyperbole from both sides, look at all the facts and compartmentalize. If you do that you'll come to a better answer. Whether it's yes or no it's not the end of the world.
Say what you want about the TA but personal attacks will simply scare people away and seek out other sources of information like the lounge TA presentations or Negotiators' Notepads and Contrails Memos. Those sources are calm, reasoned, logical, and well explained. They look reasonable and professional. Something that one would want to read to understand something about this TA. They make sense.
Contrast that to here where 90% of the information is hyperbole and overkill. Add in more than a few personal attacks and which way would the undecided logical mind turn?
One does not have to resort to extremes to lay out the reason why this TA is not a good choice for Delta pilots. Still, it is not an easy choice.
But consider:
1 - This TA does not protect Delta pilots as much as the contract we now have. Sick leave, scope, and productivity are in large part concessionary. Do we need to give large concessions while wildly profitable?
2 - The net gain in pay for this TA is much less than last time.
3 - It's obvious we have been out maneuvered.
4 - Sometimes you have to stand firm for what you want.
5 - The sun will rise and we will have another TA with a chance to vote.
For those who are undecided, ignore the hyperbole from both sides, look at all the facts and compartmentalize. If you do that you'll come to a better answer. Whether it's yes or no it's not the end of the world.
So what - how long has the DALPA echo chamber been echoing?
06-25-2015, 09:19 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,534
Now I'm catching on. The post ghoster has struck again. The Vaseline response was for him. He knows who he is but he's gone now. He did get a laugh out of it I guarantee. Maybe he'll come back and explain it to everyone but I doubt it.
sink, you said you were busy this afternoon and then stuck around and went all Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde. What's up with that? If I didn't know better I would have to say you were a completely different person. Let me know when the "good" sink gets back, I actually enjoyed debating him/you. I was going to invite you the lake for a beer but now I feel betrayed/scared.
sink, you said you were busy this afternoon and then stuck around and went all Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde. What's up with that? If I didn't know better I would have to say you were a completely different person. Let me know when the "good" sink gets back, I actually enjoyed debating him/you. I was going to invite you the lake for a beer but now I feel betrayed/scared.
06-26-2015, 05:08 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Sink r8,
The TA doesn't put "serious funds in the pocket of 190 drivers..."
We don't have any E190 drivers. Any F/O on property who goes to an F/O E190 is taking a serious pay cut under the new TA pay rates. E190 Capt and F/O pay rates are seriously less than every aircraft Delta currently operates.
Junior F/Os who go to E190 Capt get a slight pay raise compared to 7ER or -400 F/O pay rates. New Hires who go to the E190 get same pay for first year then a pay cut the next year compared to the aircraft we are currently operating.
E190 pay rates are still 84% of B717 which has similar capability in terms of seat load and range (meaning same income stream for the company).
Let's not get giddy over the increase to E190 pay rates
The TA doesn't put "serious funds in the pocket of 190 drivers..."
We don't have any E190 drivers. Any F/O on property who goes to an F/O E190 is taking a serious pay cut under the new TA pay rates. E190 Capt and F/O pay rates are seriously less than every aircraft Delta currently operates.
Junior F/Os who go to E190 Capt get a slight pay raise compared to 7ER or -400 F/O pay rates. New Hires who go to the E190 get same pay for first year then a pay cut the next year compared to the aircraft we are currently operating.
E190 pay rates are still 84% of B717 which has similar capability in terms of seat load and range (meaning same income stream for the company).
Let's not get giddy over the increase to E190 pay rates
06-26-2015, 05:14 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
This is a very very interesting stance. Is this how you feel about every issue that comes up now? I thought the donut shop would be sooo transparent that everything would be put to a vote, and they do say 'everything'. So would there be a continuous recall carousel there? Or is it just issues that you don't happen to agree with or that get labeled a "turd" that are recall worthy? But then how would know it is a "turd" if it is never put before GenPop?
Still wanna go with this stance?
Putting it before the group is not a bad thing. What's in it is another story.
Still wanna go with this stance?
Putting it before the group is not a bad thing. What's in it is another story.
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