OE trip pulls
07-05-2015, 02:28 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,653
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Wow, I'm pretty new here, but you're going to have to show your math on this one! I am not saying that you are wrong, just that your assertion of that many lost GSs is so high, that I'm shocked.
Please show your work.
What category are you in and how long have you been in it? (NYC ER?)
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Wow, I'm pretty new here, but you're going to have to show your math on this one! I am not saying that you are wrong, just that your assertion of that many lost GSs is so high, that I'm shocked.
Please show your work.
What category are you in and how long have you been in it? (NYC ER?)
07-05-2015, 02:40 AM
#62
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
This OE bidding language concession is worth much more than either side is admitting to. Its a big big deal. And the overwhelming majority of us FOs arent interested in selling it.
07-05-2015, 05:39 AM
#63
Sick of whiners
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 767 VEOP
Posts: 507
Yes i am a delta pilot. Im also not anonymous. Pretty much everyone on APC knows who i am in real life haha. I also read the contract believe it or not.
Ok so under the new TA, an LCA swaps his trip. The original rotation that he was awarded was pulled from FO bidding. Now that the LCA swapped, and training puts an OE on that new rotation, they have to buy out the FO that was on the rotation. The original rotation then goes into FO open time. The company would be less than thrilled with this practice. Do you not agree with any of this?
Thats how the system will work, So I contend yes, the company will put a lot of pressure on LCAs to not swap trips or else it defeats the purpose of all this. Ive talked to LCAs about how they risk losing their check airman letter if they arent a "team player." no surprises there, that's expected of them.
Tell me how im off base with this?
Ok so under the new TA, an LCA swaps his trip. The original rotation that he was awarded was pulled from FO bidding. Now that the LCA swapped, and training puts an OE on that new rotation, they have to buy out the FO that was on the rotation. The original rotation then goes into FO open time. The company would be less than thrilled with this practice. Do you not agree with any of this?
Thats how the system will work, So I contend yes, the company will put a lot of pressure on LCAs to not swap trips or else it defeats the purpose of all this. Ive talked to LCAs about how they risk losing their check airman letter if they arent a "team player." no surprises there, that's expected of them.
Tell me how im off base with this?
I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
07-05-2015, 05:45 AM
#64
Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,010
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I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
This does not change the apparent conundrum that DALPA claims the change is insignificant yet it is an absolute must have for the company.
I have yet to hear any pro TA poster explain this.
Scoop
07-05-2015, 05:50 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Stretch DC-9 Gear Slinger
Posts: 618
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I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
07-05-2015, 06:12 AM
#66
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 48
I've looked at Section 11, Training and Section 23, Scheduling. It's not there. I've been told by a rep that the language is in the negotiators' notes, "trust us." Well, I don't.
This is another reason we should send back this rushed product. If it's not in the TA, it's not in the TA. They will take advantage of this when the time comes, and it's coming in a couple of years. Makes you wonder where the "a contract is a contract" statement came from.
07-05-2015, 06:21 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 5-9 block, kill removing
Posts: 385
I got fooled on that one. But I remember things pretty well.
07-05-2015, 07:39 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
If that is true, and I am not saying it isn't, then this whole thing doesn't make much sense for precisely the reasons stated. If they are banking on the LCPs flying their schedule as awarded, and many of the senior ones do, maybe it is a risk the company is willing to take. If however, all the LCPs dropped/swapped their trips, then the whole purpose of this would be blown up because they would have to cover the open trip (probably greenies) and then buy off the FO on the new trip allowing him to then GS another. The advantage of this has potential to be not so advantageous to the company if that comes to fruition. My bet though is that they have done the analysis and are betting that the majority of the senior LCPs will NOT swap out of their original lines. It will be interesting if this passes to see how it plays out. I'm betting there will be a side letter requiring LCPs to retain their trips if it blows up.
07-05-2015, 07:40 AM
#69
Mother’s finest
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 73NB
Posts: 297
I'm saying they can up to the block hour limit imposed by pilots completing sim training. The TA language doesn't include any restrictions except for block hours based on training and the 75%. All the rest of the talk about in-base only is just talk; it's not in the TA.
Show me in the paragraph below where it says the company may not designate every LCA-awarded trip as OE. It's only restricted by the block hour table based on how many pilots will complete their sim training. The 75% doesn't come into play until after the PBS F/O bids are run. Once the last F/O LCA-designated trip hits the 25% of block hours, the remaining LCA-designated trips are withheld.
Here's 23.D.X.
The Company will designate rotations that have been awarded to Line Check Pilots that contain the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period. Following the award of rotations to First Officers that contain at least 25% of the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period, the Company may withhold from awarding to First Officers the remainder of such designated rotations. The projection of OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period will be calculated as follows:
a. 15 block hours for each transitioning narrowbody Captain or First Officer
b. 25 block hours for each first time narrowbody Captain
c. 40 block hours for each new hire in a narrowbody category
d. 50 block hours for each transitioning First Officer from a narrowbody category to a
widebody category
e. 60 block hours for each first time Captain transitioning from a narrowbody category
to a widebody category
f. 75 block hours for each new hire in widebody category
Read the actual TA language: page 23-10, section 23.D.X. None of the "in-base only" and "only suitable for OE"
is in the language. My rep says that language is in the negotiators' notes, "Trust us." Well, I don't.
Bottom line: the company can designate all the LCA trips up to 100% of OE block hours allowed by the above chart. The 75% is determined by the last F/O to be awarded one of those LCA-designated trips via PBS that hits the 25% threshold.
Show me in the paragraph below where it says the company may not designate every LCA-awarded trip as OE. It's only restricted by the block hour table based on how many pilots will complete their sim training. The 75% doesn't come into play until after the PBS F/O bids are run. Once the last F/O LCA-designated trip hits the 25% of block hours, the remaining LCA-designated trips are withheld.
Here's 23.D.X.
The Company will designate rotations that have been awarded to Line Check Pilots that contain the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period. Following the award of rotations to First Officers that contain at least 25% of the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period, the Company may withhold from awarding to First Officers the remainder of such designated rotations. The projection of OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period will be calculated as follows:
a. 15 block hours for each transitioning narrowbody Captain or First Officer
b. 25 block hours for each first time narrowbody Captain
c. 40 block hours for each new hire in a narrowbody category
d. 50 block hours for each transitioning First Officer from a narrowbody category to a
widebody category
e. 60 block hours for each first time Captain transitioning from a narrowbody category
to a widebody category
f. 75 block hours for each new hire in widebody category
Read the actual TA language: page 23-10, section 23.D.X. None of the "in-base only" and "only suitable for OE"
is in the language. My rep says that language is in the negotiators' notes, "Trust us." Well, I don't.
Bottom line: the company can designate all the LCA trips up to 100% of OE block hours allowed by the above chart. The 75% is determined by the last F/O to be awarded one of those LCA-designated trips via PBS that hits the 25% threshold.
07-05-2015, 07:51 AM
#70
Senior by choice
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 427
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I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
I'm not an expert, but I believe as soon as the schedulers "designate" a line check pilot trip as an OE or TOE on their schedule, that trip becomes locked and the line check pilot can not drop, swap or trade it.
So your dire scenario of a line check guy losing his/her status due to swapping could probably not happen, except here in Forum reality distortion world.
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