Herkflyr

And yet we have other posts that state there is no OE going on at all in the A320 category. Are you saying that the company will still withhold 75 % of LCA trips. I really doubt that

sailingfun

What you miss is with that amount of OE they will spread it all around the system to get it done. They can only pull the OE time for NY guys training in base.

BenderRodriguez

The way I understand it, the OE schedulers are going to look at the LCP's lines and pick trips that would be suitable for OEs, BUT, those would only be picked if they have students that they project will be ready at that time. If there are no students coming out during a given time frame, then all trips will remain in the FO pot.

So if all the LCPs had trips in the first half of the month, and there were no students coming out of the pipeline until the second half, none of those LCP trips would be held out. If a student then finished early, the current rules would apply and he would be bought off just like now.

Does anybody understand it differently?

80ktsClamp

That sounds right, t.

The major effect from this in times of high training.

Scoop

This post is a cut and paste from another forum.


Bender,

I believe your understanding is correct. I see two main problems with the whole OE trip pull issue:

First - if the impact is so insignificant, then why is this so important to the company?

Second, backwards looking data points are meaningless unless hiring, training and retirements are static - we all know they are not. Currently we are mainly training to add Pilots at the bottom end of the system. What do you think will happen when we start losing 50-80 Pilots a month off the top end while hiring at an even greater pace.

As usual the company is looking forward, maybe even past the next contract, and we have Pilots trying to point out how little future contract changes would have made in the past. Meaningless and irrelevant.

I would like to see the numbers run with 600 to 800 Pilots a year retiring and hiring at over 1000 Pilots per year while bringing new WB aircraft online. That seems much more relevant than how little the impact would have been two months ago.

Scoop

Timbo

Exactly right Scoop. Only the company knows (and believe me, they know) how many pilots will be required to go through training in the future.

They know how many guys turn 65, when, and what equipment they are on, they know how many they are going to hire, they control the A/E's and they have figured out how many pilots they can push through training per month, per fleet.

Remember, new Captains or just anyone moving from one fleet to another need IOE too. That's a huge amount of training.

PigeonF16

I'm saying they can up to the block hour limit imposed by pilots completing sim training. The TA language doesn't include any restrictions except for block hours based on training and the 75%. All the rest of the talk about in-base only is just talk; it's not in the TA.

Show me in the paragraph below where it says the company may not designate every LCA-awarded trip as OE. It's only restricted by the block hour table based on how many pilots will complete their sim training. The 75% doesn't come into play until after the PBS F/O bids are run. Once the last F/O LCA-designated trip hits the 25% of block hours, the remaining LCA-designated trips are withheld.

Here's 23.D.X.
The Company will designate rotations that have been awarded to Line Check Pilots that contain the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period. Following the award of rotations to First Officers that contain at least 25% of the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period, the Company may withhold from awarding to First Officers the remainder of such designated rotations. The projection of OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period will be calculated as follows:
a. 15 block hours for each transitioning narrowbody Captain or First Officer
b. 25 block hours for each first time narrowbody Captain
c. 40 block hours for each new hire in a narrowbody category
d. 50 block hours for each transitioning First Officer from a narrowbody category to a
widebody category
e. 60 block hours for each first time Captain transitioning from a narrowbody category
to a widebody category
f. 75 block hours for each new hire in widebody category

Read the actual TA language: page 23-10, section 23.D.X. None of the "in-base only" and "only suitable for OE"
is in the language. My rep says that language is in the negotiators' notes, "Trust us." Well, I don't.

Bottom line: the company can designate all the LCA trips up to 100% of OE block hours allowed by the above chart. The 75% is determined by the last F/O to be awarded one of those LCA-designated trips via PBS that hits the 25% threshold.

scambo1

An additional little tidbit on the FO trip pulls from the P2P thing in NRT.

After some discussion on the topic, the p2p guys said something to the effect of; "well, we can't get rid of the OE trip pulls because the company really wants it."

WHY AM I PAYING UNION DUES?????

PigeonF16

I understand it differently. There is nothing in the TA language that describes what is "suitable" other than what the OE planners like. If the OE planners like them all, they can designate them all up to the maximum block hours based on pilots completing sim training.

It's important to note that the OE planners do not withhold LCA trips. They simply designate which of the LCA-awarded trips may have OE up to the block hour limit. They can designate the full amount if they want. PBS is the mechanism for withholding trips. The senior F/Os' bid preferences determine which trips are withheld.

First half or second half of month? No difference. The only language in the TA is "bid period." If one Wide Body New Hire finished his sim on the last day of the bid period, the OE planners may designate 75 block hours on the LCA trips. However, once 25% of those 75 block hours are awarded to F/Os via PBS, the remaining trips are withheld.

NYC categories that will be hit hard are the ones getting New Hire: all but widebody bigger than 7ER. ATLM88 will get hit hard.

Once the retirement wave hits in 2-3 years, there will be so much training going on, the company will have to training many more LCAs for each category. Then you'll see a major impact in all bases and categories. It's a huge concession to all F/Os.

Scoop

That should raise all kinds of warning flags there guys! DALPA insists the changes are insignificant and that we as Pilots will not even notice the change.................................. and yet it is so important to the company it is a deal breaker.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Scoop