Originally Posted by BigGuns

Keep in mind that is only the guys that bid to fly with LCA. It does NOT include LCA trips awarded that were not specifically bid!

Originally Posted by Timbo

My litmus test for, "Is this a Concession" is, WHO asked for it?

If Management asked for it, I'm 99.9% sure it's a concession.

Originally Posted by Robo17

Can someone check me on this?

Section 23.D.7.X. Language says that the company may block 75% of projected OE hours. Doesn't say anything about the number of trips. So how do we know what the impact will be on the actual number of trips blocked?

Honest question, first time poster.

Originally Posted by GoCats67

As a UA guy I can tell you that everybody over hear I have talked to cares (about the DAL TA).

We already have two of the big reasons you should vote NO on this TA in our contract. Both of which we desperately want to get rid of in our next one!!! If you guys can't hold the line, then we are screwed.

We have the 75% of OE need can be blocked from FO bidding and as a 747 FO it absolutely sucks. Choice Flying trips are blocked every month, leaving less flying trips for senior folks to bid on. So, more senior folks are forced into Bunkie (IRO) slots. Increasing the likelyhood that you will get to go back to the training center for landings, YIPEEEEEEEE!!!! Also build less lines, so you need less FOs, forcing folks on to reserve that should hold a line and denying bids to the next folks in line that want to upgrade. That of course cascades down the rest of the seniority list and like the preverbial snowball going down a hill gains size as it goes, you end up with folks on the outside that can't get in. It is a huge give to the company!!!!

The other part that we already have is the relaxed counting for JV/Scope. If you want to know how bad it is, the best example I can give is the LAX to Germany routes. We used to fly a 777 from LAX to FRA, but we don't anymore. Bad route you say, I laugh in your general direction, it is a great route!!!, just ask Lufthansa. They are currently flying an A380 from LAX-FRA, a 747-800 from LAX-FRA and an A340 from LAX-MUC. Thanks to our brilliant JV/Scope that is perfectly legal even though we don't get any metal on the route. A 757-200 counts the same as an A380!!!! You have got to be kidding me!!!!!!

Again, these are two of the sections that we swallowed a horse pill over in our last agreement because we didn't have a joint contract and needed to get one to move our group along as one. Our last agreement was a hold your nose and vote yes, because it wasn't really voting yes on a contract as much as it was voting yes to end the separation of the two pilot groups! There is no way our current contract would pass on its own merits and I think you would hear that pretty consistently from the UA group. The gives that you have in your TA are very painful, anyone who tries to tell you differently is a either a Bold Faced Liar or completely ignorant. Those are the only two choices.

If you vote yes on this and are in the bottom 3/4 of the seniority list, I think you will see that, despite the pay raises, your W-2 earnings will actually be lower than they would have been once the widebody growth stagnation is fully realized! Pay raises with no growth on the top end are worse than no pay raises but real Widebody growth!

We had a huge number of outside compelling reasons to vote for a less than ideal contract 3 years ago. Those are gone for us and I don't see anyway that we would vote for your TA and I don't see any reason that you should either!

Originally Posted by Robo17

Can someone check me on this?

Section 23.D.7.X. Language says that the company may block 75% of projected OE hours. Doesn't say anything about the number of trips. So how do we know what the impact will be on the actual number of trips blocked?

Example: A transitioning narrowbody FO requires 15 hours of OE. The company can now block 11.3 of these hours, leaving 3.7 hours to be awarded in PBS. How many LCA/OE trips does that equate to? Alot of LCA trips in my category are 16 hours, so wouldn't the company be, in practice, blocking the entire trip (resulting in more than 75%)?

Honest question, first time poster.

Originally Posted by 3 green

Their are approx. 600-700 LCA system wide at Delta. So lets say 600 and each has around 5 trips per month. That is 3000 trips. Take 75% of that and you get 2,250 trips that will be withheld from First Officer bidding system wide. That is a lot of good trips that no FO can bid.. That will trickle down thru the whole list on each aircraft..Also, what are we getting in return if we give up the huge concession? Because it sure isn't a pay raise to make up for it with the profit sharing reduction figured in.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

One issue I forsee is vacation slides. I have a mid december vacation and will slide it over the holidays. last year, no problem. If this TA goes through and senior Christmas trips are given to LCA, and senior LCA bidding FOs take the remaining senior trips and so on, by the time it gets to me at 30% in category, could be out of luck.

So given I'm supposed to be 5-8% more senior this December than last, I may lose a tremendous amount of seniority.

But 8633++++++

Originally Posted by BigGuns

Keep in mind that is only the guys that bid to fly with LCA. It does NOT include LCA trips awarded that were not specifically bid!

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Negativo. It is 75% of DESIGNATED OE trips, as defined by the company. That is a far cry from 75% of every trip that every LCA has awarded system-wide.