Details on Delta TA
06-17-2015, 03:40 AM
#9461
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,995
Professor,
One of ALPA's stated goals was not to leave any money "on the table". I haven't heard how the company's announcement of $5B in buybacks DURING NEGOTIATIONS affected that calculus. Can you please comment? Did ALPA negotiators see that as money off the table? Did they know that was going to happen ahead of time? Sure seems like it would have been a great time to step away from the negotiating table and rerun the numbers.
One of ALPA's stated goals was not to leave any money "on the table". I haven't heard how the company's announcement of $5B in buybacks DURING NEGOTIATIONS affected that calculus. Can you please comment? Did ALPA negotiators see that as money off the table? Did they know that was going to happen ahead of time? Sure seems like it would have been a great time to step away from the negotiating table and rerun the numbers.
06-17-2015, 04:01 AM
#9462
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
First time post...I started reading around page 660 so I may have missed the OE/LCP discussion...
I ran the numbers using the PBS bid method to remove 75% of projected OE from the F/O bid on the ATL 717 F/O.
Delta saves over $148,000 just on ATL 717 F/O flight pay in June 2015 had the TA language been in effect. 13 fewer ATL 717 F/O regular line holders. TA would have 185 REG and 76 RES pilots on ATL 717 F/O position this month...
I just ran the numbers for ATL717/B for June 2015 using the new formula. Actual numbers for June were 198 regular lines and 63 reserve lines. I used the June 717 Sim schedule and counted 12 first time Captains, 1 transitioning F/O and 22 New Hire F/Os completing 717 sim training in June. Check my math, but I get 1195 block hours (12X25 + 1X15 + 22X40 = 1195). Since most 4-day trips have about 19 block hours per 21 hours credit (just a guess) and using June's ALV of 79, I get 16.7 lines for this much block time. The first 25% of F/Os bidding LCA trips get their trips leaving 12.5 lines worth of OE withheld from the rest of the F/Os. Unless someone wants a RLL worth half the TLV, you wind up with 13 more F/Os on reserve lines on the ATL 717...185 regular lines and 76 reserve lines. Keep in mind that 717 F/O reserve coverage increases during the month as each New Hire gets signed off on OE becomes an extra reserve that wasn't counted in the PBS (I don't see any of the names of the New Hires finishing sim training in June on the PBS award for June, but someone can check that).
I ran the numbers using the PBS bid method to remove 75% of projected OE from the F/O bid on the ATL 717 F/O.
Delta saves over $148,000 just on ATL 717 F/O flight pay in June 2015 had the TA language been in effect. 13 fewer ATL 717 F/O regular line holders. TA would have 185 REG and 76 RES pilots on ATL 717 F/O position this month...
I just ran the numbers for ATL717/B for June 2015 using the new formula. Actual numbers for June were 198 regular lines and 63 reserve lines. I used the June 717 Sim schedule and counted 12 first time Captains, 1 transitioning F/O and 22 New Hire F/Os completing 717 sim training in June. Check my math, but I get 1195 block hours (12X25 + 1X15 + 22X40 = 1195). Since most 4-day trips have about 19 block hours per 21 hours credit (just a guess) and using June's ALV of 79, I get 16.7 lines for this much block time. The first 25% of F/Os bidding LCA trips get their trips leaving 12.5 lines worth of OE withheld from the rest of the F/Os. Unless someone wants a RLL worth half the TLV, you wind up with 13 more F/Os on reserve lines on the ATL 717...185 regular lines and 76 reserve lines. Keep in mind that 717 F/O reserve coverage increases during the month as each New Hire gets signed off on OE becomes an extra reserve that wasn't counted in the PBS (I don't see any of the names of the New Hires finishing sim training in June on the PBS award for June, but someone can check that).
06-17-2015, 04:11 AM
#9463
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: undefined
Posts: 328
You are correct about displacing 744 FO's however I doubt there is a whole lot of 744 OE training going on and LCA bidding. This is mostly a narrow body/7ER FO issue. Most 744 FO's could already hold Capt on something or have been previously. Yes, some will again decide to fly narrow body Capt and displace, but awards of senior narrow body FO's to Capt will not, which was Carl's assertion. Biggest drag of the 744 retirement will be many positions will be filled from above rather than below. Now add in the CVG base closure and we will have stagnation for the bottom half of the list for a while.....
06-17-2015, 04:16 AM
#9464
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,995
Professor,
Are there any graphs and charts to show total compensation differences with the TA for an 8-year FO on junior equipment? Or even a 2-year FO? It's one thing to weigh the pay vs. concessions for 777A. But those on the bottom (a staggering number with all the latest hiring...though many can't vote) make IDENTICAL concessions for WAY less money. Of course, they also make GREATER concessions for items like the LCA OE line pulls.
This contract is amendable is 3 short years - before retirements even kick into full gear. High-end pay numbers are irrelevant to all but a few, but they seem to be the prime focus of the MEC.
Are there any graphs and charts to show total compensation differences with the TA for an 8-year FO on junior equipment? Or even a 2-year FO? It's one thing to weigh the pay vs. concessions for 777A. But those on the bottom (a staggering number with all the latest hiring...though many can't vote) make IDENTICAL concessions for WAY less money. Of course, they also make GREATER concessions for items like the LCA OE line pulls.
This contract is amendable is 3 short years - before retirements even kick into full gear. High-end pay numbers are irrelevant to all but a few, but they seem to be the prime focus of the MEC.
06-17-2015, 04:18 AM
#9465
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Tsquare won his bet and was not paid. Just sayin'
06-17-2015, 04:39 AM
#9466
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Professor,
Are there any graphs and charts to show total compensation differences with the TA for an 8-year FO on junior equipment? Or even a 2-year FO? It's one thing to weigh the pay vs. concessions for 777A. But those on the bottom (a staggering number with all the latest hiring...though many can't vote) make IDENTICAL concessions for WAY less money. Of course, they also make GREATER concessions for items like the LCA OE line pulls.
This contract is amendable is 3 short years - before retirements even kick into full gear. High-end pay numbers are irrelevant to all but a few, but they seem to be the prime focus of the MEC.
Are there any graphs and charts to show total compensation differences with the TA for an 8-year FO on junior equipment? Or even a 2-year FO? It's one thing to weigh the pay vs. concessions for 777A. But those on the bottom (a staggering number with all the latest hiring...though many can't vote) make IDENTICAL concessions for WAY less money. Of course, they also make GREATER concessions for items like the LCA OE line pulls.
This contract is amendable is 3 short years - before retirements even kick into full gear. High-end pay numbers are irrelevant to all but a few, but they seem to be the prime focus of the MEC.
It's amazing how DALPA cherry picks 777a rates. And claims they aren't pushing a sales job.
06-17-2015, 05:24 AM
#9469
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Professor,
Are there any graphs and charts to show total compensation differences with the TA for an 8-year FO on junior equipment? Or even a 2-year FO? It's one thing to weigh the pay vs. concessions for 777A. But those on the bottom (a staggering number with all the latest hiring...though many can't vote) make IDENTICAL concessions for WAY less money. Of course, they also make GREATER concessions for items like the LCA OE line pulls.
This contract is amendable is 3 short years - before retirements even kick into full gear. High-end pay numbers are irrelevant to all but a few, but they seem to be the prime focus of the MEC.
Are there any graphs and charts to show total compensation differences with the TA for an 8-year FO on junior equipment? Or even a 2-year FO? It's one thing to weigh the pay vs. concessions for 777A. But those on the bottom (a staggering number with all the latest hiring...though many can't vote) make IDENTICAL concessions for WAY less money. Of course, they also make GREATER concessions for items like the LCA OE line pulls.
This contract is amendable is 3 short years - before retirements even kick into full gear. High-end pay numbers are irrelevant to all but a few, but they seem to be the prime focus of the MEC.
We were raped in bankruptcy, there is no other word for it. We lost 42% of our pay, many of our QOL benefits, and all of our retirement. About 1400 guys were furloughed. Many guys lost their houses and/or got divorces and there were 8 suicides. If you weren't here for all of that, I can see where you might not be as PO'd as the rest of us who had to live through that.
The only reason we got Profit Sharing in the first place was due to the Billions we gave the company in making those sacrifices.
We have been slowly clawing our way back ever since then, but as you saw in 2012, and now in this POS TA, our MEC is constantly trading away stuff we have already negotiated for, for pittance raises of 3%. We are still today, 18% BELOW our 2004 pay rates, AND our Retirements are severely underfunded!
This company is now making BILLIONS! Some of that BILLIONS is OUR RETIREMET money and OUR PAY CUTS and the JOBS LOST with PBS bidding and the rest of us flying 87-92 hours a month!
GIVE US BACK OUR MONEY FIRST!
Then you can "Reward the Shareholders".
06-17-2015, 05:40 AM
#9470
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Position: 7ER Costar
Posts: 406
The SL stats from the company state SL usage increase unexpectedly with C2012. I wasn't on property pre 2012, so was that SL policy better from the pilots perspective? Is so, wouldn't that immediately fix the company's problem?
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