Details on Delta TA
06-14-2015, 05:30 AM
#8661
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
From my experience in a democracy gaining the support of the middle 20% is the key to victory. Most of the time the 40% on either end are entrenched and will not have their minds changed. I know this because I hold an elected office in the state I live in and have held it for nearly eight years. (Not the guy in SLC with the same name BTW). When I am campaigning I need to not only find those middle 20% folks but I need to convince them that I am not only correct in my views but also trustworthy and deserving of their support.
Here is the part where I am going to totally open my self up. I have never voted no on a contract since I was hired by Delta in 1999. I am a fairly emotional person. I wear it right out there on my sleeve. If you have ever flown with me you know how much I love flying and how much I love Delta Air Lines. You know that I have wanted to be a pilot for Delta since I was ten years old. I reached my dream via Learjet’s in South Florida, L1011’s for a company in Miami and Cathay Pacific in Hong Kong. Fulfilling my dream of being a captain for Delta happened in January of this year.
I am the guy who stands at the gate and makes the IROPS PA’s. I am the guy who stands in the doorway or jet way during deplaning and boarding. I am the guy who makes sure the cabin crew eats. I am the guy who thanks the platinum’s and the diamond HVC’s for their loyalty. I tell them thank you for buying tickets so I can pay the mortgage on my home. When I put my 13 and 11-year-old boys to bed at night they pray for Richard Anderson and his family by name. They pray for every one of you every night. They pray for your safety and that you will make good decisions no matter what. I am that guy. I do not say this to lift myself up. I say it so you know my heart and how much I love what I do for Delta.
We need to find those middle 20% and convince them that this TA is wrong. I believe it to not only be wrong from the point of view of bad representation but I believe it to be unjustified. Many people had to purposefully make the decision to bring us this TA. Those people are in one of those groups of 40%. We can defeat them if we find the middle 20%. It can be done. Just look to your left or right. They are sitting right there.
When we deliver our message about our feelings we need to lead with how much we love our jobs and how much we love Delta. If we do that people will listen. Remember if they reject you without a fair hearing they are in the 40%. Move on. Find the 20%.
If you look back in history Ronald Reagan told America how great we were at one of the lowest points in modern American history. We needed to change some things. We listened and we let him do it. He laid the foundation for defeating Communism and it changed the world. Many of you reading this letter helped him do it. Our mission, in a way, is similar. We have to tell others how great flying for Delta is all the while telling them how bad this TA is. Find the 20%, They will listen. It will work. I have done it.
I am voting no.
Tim Cosgrove
NYC73NA
__________________
Tim Cosgrove
Here is the part where I am going to totally open my self up. I have never voted no on a contract since I was hired by Delta in 1999. I am a fairly emotional person. I wear it right out there on my sleeve. If you have ever flown with me you know how much I love flying and how much I love Delta Air Lines. You know that I have wanted to be a pilot for Delta since I was ten years old. I reached my dream via Learjet’s in South Florida, L1011’s for a company in Miami and Cathay Pacific in Hong Kong. Fulfilling my dream of being a captain for Delta happened in January of this year.
I am the guy who stands at the gate and makes the IROPS PA’s. I am the guy who stands in the doorway or jet way during deplaning and boarding. I am the guy who makes sure the cabin crew eats. I am the guy who thanks the platinum’s and the diamond HVC’s for their loyalty. I tell them thank you for buying tickets so I can pay the mortgage on my home. When I put my 13 and 11-year-old boys to bed at night they pray for Richard Anderson and his family by name. They pray for every one of you every night. They pray for your safety and that you will make good decisions no matter what. I am that guy. I do not say this to lift myself up. I say it so you know my heart and how much I love what I do for Delta.
We need to find those middle 20% and convince them that this TA is wrong. I believe it to not only be wrong from the point of view of bad representation but I believe it to be unjustified. Many people had to purposefully make the decision to bring us this TA. Those people are in one of those groups of 40%. We can defeat them if we find the middle 20%. It can be done. Just look to your left or right. They are sitting right there.
When we deliver our message about our feelings we need to lead with how much we love our jobs and how much we love Delta. If we do that people will listen. Remember if they reject you without a fair hearing they are in the 40%. Move on. Find the 20%.
If you look back in history Ronald Reagan told America how great we were at one of the lowest points in modern American history. We needed to change some things. We listened and we let him do it. He laid the foundation for defeating Communism and it changed the world. Many of you reading this letter helped him do it. Our mission, in a way, is similar. We have to tell others how great flying for Delta is all the while telling them how bad this TA is. Find the 20%, They will listen. It will work. I have done it.
I am voting no.
Tim Cosgrove
NYC73NA
__________________
Tim Cosgrove
06-14-2015, 05:34 AM
#8662
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,431
If you do and make a fortune because it tanks I will be the first to congratulate your foresight.
You should be able to make a whole lot more than any TA would bring you if you are right...and you seem pretty sure that you are. Why waste time on this message board?
06-14-2015, 05:36 AM
#8663
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,456
Metrics
Scope changes metrics from EASK to block hours, Why?
The metrics have been changed before. Tokyo. When the metrics change it is to allow the company more flexibility. We need to add requirements not change them. If EASK is not adequate protection add to the requirement a block hour threshold not replace it.
We are chasing our tail every time we do this. Why can't we get language in this contract that is effective? I don't see much interpretation on the new sick leave language. Specifics, 15 days, 365 days etc. what's our evaluation period and cure period for my health? Will sick time be defined as illness now and medical incapacity next time?
Scope changes metrics from EASK to block hours, Why?
The metrics have been changed before. Tokyo. When the metrics change it is to allow the company more flexibility. We need to add requirements not change them. If EASK is not adequate protection add to the requirement a block hour threshold not replace it.
We are chasing our tail every time we do this. Why can't we get language in this contract that is effective? I don't see much interpretation on the new sick leave language. Specifics, 15 days, 365 days etc. what's our evaluation period and cure period for my health? Will sick time be defined as illness now and medical incapacity next time?
06-14-2015, 05:41 AM
#8664
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,960
Any chance we can get the sports super agent Scott Boras to negotiate for us? When A Rod saw $300 million for 10 years, he didn't have to think twice. On the other hand, the TA can't really be sold, it's that bad. So fear tactics are coming, mediation, TVM and assorted threats. Predictable.
06-14-2015, 06:41 AM
#8665
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 73N/FO
Posts: 13
[QUOTE=SharpestTool;1904221]Been working the last few days.
Do we have a consensus yet on plan B? I hear a lot saying their voting no. What is the prevailing opinion?
1. We go back to RA and he capitulates.
2. RA says pound sand and see you at the NMB in March
3. NMB says, "Damn DALPA we agree with your position and we release you for self help." Timeline?
4. NMB says "Damn DALPA, can I have some of that crack you're smoking? Here's an iceberg for you to sit on for awhile." Timeline?
5. Vote in DPA and start over.
Voting No is half the equation. The other half is what happens next and when it happens. Seems if people are going to plead that everyone should vote no, they should then tell us what to expect if successful.[/QUO
Don't post much but this post represents pretty much what I resent about DALPA. The negotiators negotiate, send a concessionary TA to the MEC. Some reps abdicate their duty and pass the buck to us. Now, when we call out the negatives in this horrible TA the DALPA FPL folks blame the membership for DARING to disagree!!
And then say WE should come up with something better. I thought that's what we paid dues money for.
I don't think it's professional to pin this on the membership. Some people seem to be too invested in their positions at DALPA and frankly seem to rubber stamp whatever comes from the negotiators.
I was a yes in 2012 and a solid NO on this one.
Do we have a consensus yet on plan B? I hear a lot saying their voting no. What is the prevailing opinion?
1. We go back to RA and he capitulates.
2. RA says pound sand and see you at the NMB in March
3. NMB says, "Damn DALPA we agree with your position and we release you for self help." Timeline?
4. NMB says "Damn DALPA, can I have some of that crack you're smoking? Here's an iceberg for you to sit on for awhile." Timeline?
5. Vote in DPA and start over.
Voting No is half the equation. The other half is what happens next and when it happens. Seems if people are going to plead that everyone should vote no, they should then tell us what to expect if successful.[/QUO
Don't post much but this post represents pretty much what I resent about DALPA. The negotiators negotiate, send a concessionary TA to the MEC. Some reps abdicate their duty and pass the buck to us. Now, when we call out the negatives in this horrible TA the DALPA FPL folks blame the membership for DARING to disagree!!
And then say WE should come up with something better. I thought that's what we paid dues money for.
I don't think it's professional to pin this on the membership. Some people seem to be too invested in their positions at DALPA and frankly seem to rubber stamp whatever comes from the negotiators.
I was a yes in 2012 and a solid NO on this one.
06-14-2015, 06:51 AM
#8668
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: fifi flyer
Posts: 573
Ok this confuses me. Just after we get the TA the media starts reporting this, for example:
"The Business Chronicle notes the agreement would allow Delta to operate more 737-900ER and Embraer E190 aircraft, which the airline intends to acquire as soon as the agreement is ratified."
As far as I know Delta is free to buy these aircraft anytime, as many as they want, under our CURRENT contract. So why is it that once again they are trying to pin new aircraft acquisition to a yes vote? Pure bribery. Its obvious and insulting. Are we that lame? I sure hope we didn't give up any negotiating capital to acquire aircraft that the company doesn't need our permission for anyway.
"The Business Chronicle notes the agreement would allow Delta to operate more 737-900ER and Embraer E190 aircraft, which the airline intends to acquire as soon as the agreement is ratified."
As far as I know Delta is free to buy these aircraft anytime, as many as they want, under our CURRENT contract. So why is it that once again they are trying to pin new aircraft acquisition to a yes vote? Pure bribery. Its obvious and insulting. Are we that lame? I sure hope we didn't give up any negotiating capital to acquire aircraft that the company doesn't need our permission for anyway.
06-14-2015, 06:57 AM
#8669
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
So first, I am a 2014 hire, recently off probabation, so this is my first union experience. SO be easy on me if I am asking a silly question!
Read through all the red change items in the TA commuting in today and noticed they have redone all the math for reserve levels. Its all greeek and could not make out whether it means they will carry more reserves on any given day or less. But combined with the LCA change, it has me concerned. The LCA change may push me back to reserve. I know you're all crying about the 3 months I had to stand reserve, but now that I have a line, I realize its a much better way to live! They haven't changed the x-day tables, but if they raise the number of reserves required my ability to say move x-days for example, pretty much goes away I would think. Opinions?
I also read the 5+15 daily credit language....and I sure don't interpret it the same way the company has applied it! I can fly a 4 day trip with a 30 hour LO, and say the 3 days I do fly are 6 hours block each. My math (6+6+6+5+15) comes to 23+15. But what I see is 21 with 3 hours credit. I know it is not something that is changed in this TA, but what am I missing that obviously makes the math more complicated than a lowly MD-88 FO can figure out.....
Read through all the red change items in the TA commuting in today and noticed they have redone all the math for reserve levels. Its all greeek and could not make out whether it means they will carry more reserves on any given day or less. But combined with the LCA change, it has me concerned. The LCA change may push me back to reserve. I know you're all crying about the 3 months I had to stand reserve, but now that I have a line, I realize its a much better way to live! They haven't changed the x-day tables, but if they raise the number of reserves required my ability to say move x-days for example, pretty much goes away I would think. Opinions?
I also read the 5+15 daily credit language....and I sure don't interpret it the same way the company has applied it! I can fly a 4 day trip with a 30 hour LO, and say the 3 days I do fly are 6 hours block each. My math (6+6+6+5+15) comes to 23+15. But what I see is 21 with 3 hours credit. I know it is not something that is changed in this TA, but what am I missing that obviously makes the math more complicated than a lowly MD-88 FO can figure out.....
In your next 8 years at DAL, you will experience a current pilot's 25 year career. If this contract passes, you will (potentially) experience that 25 year career in 25 years...(maybe fewer). But, you will have fewer opportunities to fly wide body intl. too.
I will take time at a future date to teach you the finer points of "unionization" at DAL. We owe you that but, for now...
Vote no
06-14-2015, 07:03 AM
#8670
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: Entitled rocket surgeon!
Posts: 193
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