Details on Delta TA
06-13-2015, 12:30 PM
#8421
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
I'm thinking this forum is a dangerous place. I've spent days glued to it, happy how many people (here) plan to vote no. I've talked with most of my Delta buddies, who all think the TA stinks (but not all of whom can vote).
Then, I go fly the line and 100% of the Captains I've flown with (1 of 1) say "The pay is pretty good...we won't get more if we go back, I'm probably a yes" (thence commenced much discussion and he was receptive to the alternative - or appeared to be so).
Based on my statistically insignificant friend pool, I think the younger guys are pretty on-board with voting this down. But what about the As??? Especially those who don't "waste their time" here...I'm worried that the resistance isn't more organized.
Then, I go fly the line and 100% of the Captains I've flown with (1 of 1) say "The pay is pretty good...we won't get more if we go back, I'm probably a yes" (thence commenced much discussion and he was receptive to the alternative - or appeared to be so).
Based on my statistically insignificant friend pool, I think the younger guys are pretty on-board with voting this down. But what about the As??? Especially those who don't "waste their time" here...I'm worried that the resistance isn't more organized.
06-13-2015, 12:30 PM
#8422
Sick of whiners
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 767 VEOP
Posts: 507
Short-time lurker, first-time poster...
...We have been flying 757s over to Europe as long as AF has been using A380s.
But hasn't Air France been hemorrhaging money for 10 yrs? (no profits, while Delta made billions? Maybe they should consider the 757
)
...We fly to various destinations with two men crews (under 117 we can do almost half of Europe with a crew of 2) and if we add 737s like United has, we can continue to down gauge the flying....
As soon as we signed the JV in 2000, AF went on a 777 buying spree to add more capacity over to the US. We have been shrinking our European operation for the past 15 years and Anderson is pretty clear he prefers to sell tickets not fly passengers, across the pond.
Have we been shrinking? I am on the ER, so I should probably know this, but how many flights do we have across the Atlantic compared to 5 or 10 years ago? Where can I even find that info?
AC
...We have been flying 757s over to Europe as long as AF has been using A380s.
But hasn't Air France been hemorrhaging money for 10 yrs? (no profits, while Delta made billions? Maybe they should consider the 757
)...We fly to various destinations with two men crews (under 117 we can do almost half of Europe with a crew of 2) and if we add 737s like United has, we can continue to down gauge the flying....
As soon as we signed the JV in 2000, AF went on a 777 buying spree to add more capacity over to the US. We have been shrinking our European operation for the past 15 years and Anderson is pretty clear he prefers to sell tickets not fly passengers, across the pond.
Have we been shrinking? I am on the ER, so I should probably know this, but how many flights do we have across the Atlantic compared to 5 or 10 years ago? Where can I even find that info?
AC
06-13-2015, 12:30 PM
#8423
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Bananie,
Have you read Georgetq's last few posts? If not, you need to. Then try and tell me the JV Scope is not a huge give. He backs it up with good articles. Read the post from a first time poster a few posts above this one and address his concerns about sick leave. They are valid, no where near out of the realm of possibility. Don't just tell me that a guy who is a graduate of Wharton Business School and is in the medical arena that deals with this issue (and who is a Delta Pilot) is wrong, show me where he is wrong. Seems to me we could consider him a qualified expert in the matter. What about the 1.E.9? For me, this TA is NOT about the money.
Denny
Have you read Georgetq's last few posts? If not, you need to. Then try and tell me the JV Scope is not a huge give. He backs it up with good articles. Read the post from a first time poster a few posts above this one and address his concerns about sick leave. They are valid, no where near out of the realm of possibility. Don't just tell me that a guy who is a graduate of Wharton Business School and is in the medical arena that deals with this issue (and who is a Delta Pilot) is wrong, show me where he is wrong. Seems to me we could consider him a qualified expert in the matter. What about the 1.E.9? For me, this TA is NOT about the money.
Denny
06-13-2015, 12:37 PM
#8424
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 115
If you think I'm a big meanie then ok go for it. Not to blow my own horn but I think I have a reputation on this website over the years as a pretty no nonsense kind of guy that does not, I repeat not get into the name calling etc. Heck, you just called me a meanie, what have I called you?
If you think it's overblown hype, I cannot help you. As has been said: You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
You know what, I ended up in your camp on C2012 (and every contract before that). The question you should be asking yourself is: why is a guy like Denny Crane vehemently against this TA? Then you might be able to see a smidgen of my point of view. Heck, even Slowplay says there are a lot of concessions in this agreement. I think there are a lot more than he does but he still said that.
As for the blinders, whose "attacking" whom now.
I will leave that up to others to judge.
Denny
If you think it's overblown hype, I cannot help you. As has been said: You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
You know what, I ended up in your camp on C2012 (and every contract before that). The question you should be asking yourself is: why is a guy like Denny Crane vehemently against this TA? Then you might be able to see a smidgen of my point of view. Heck, even Slowplay says there are a lot of concessions in this agreement. I think there are a lot more than he does but he still said that.
As for the blinders, whose "attacking" whom now.
I will leave that up to others to judge.Denny
06-13-2015, 12:41 PM
#8425
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
Well I don't remember every post so I asked you to list all the horribles that you see and you don't and then tell me I have blinders on. I have heard the same warnings of JV's taking all our flying yet international block hours are growing and the widebody fleet is growing. This place always tries to invent the most horrific results and yet they never seem to occur. George was grossly wrong on 2012 so his predictive record does not impress me. The company paid us off for the 4 years they were out of compliance and it's not rational that they would then agree to some metric they can't hit after they paid us off. You wouldn't accept that deal. Taking the LHR stuff out is good because that is a growth market. I looked at the scope compliance stuff on the alpa site and if I knew how to attach it here I would. You can see that international block hours are going up. APC says the sky is falling, at some point you have cried wolf too much.
06-13-2015, 12:41 PM
#8426
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
I'm thinking this forum is a dangerous place. I've spent days glued to it, happy how many people (here) plan to vote no. I've talked with most of my Delta buddies, who all think the TA stinks (but not all of whom can vote).
Then, I go fly the line and 100% of the Captains I've flown with (1 of 1) say "The pay is pretty good...we won't get more if we go back, I'm probably a yes" (thence commenced much discussion and he was receptive to the alternative - or appeared to be so).
Based on my statistically insignificant friend pool, I think the younger guys are pretty on-board with voting this down. But what about the As??? Especially those who don't "waste their time" here...I'm worried that the resistance isn't more organized.
Then, I go fly the line and 100% of the Captains I've flown with (1 of 1) say "The pay is pretty good...we won't get more if we go back, I'm probably a yes" (thence commenced much discussion and he was receptive to the alternative - or appeared to be so).
Based on my statistically insignificant friend pool, I think the younger guys are pretty on-board with voting this down. But what about the As??? Especially those who don't "waste their time" here...I'm worried that the resistance isn't more organized.
During the bankruptcy years we had several suicides in both companies over, I understand, mostly money. Yes, there will be lots of low educated voters who will look only at the money. However, there will be lots of guys with problems outside their control and we need to separate the two.
Good thing I'm rich and can afford to vote NO
06-13-2015, 12:48 PM
#8427
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
APCF FAQ TA 2015
Added more questions. Would love more, just PM me.
George?
BTW, if you wanted to create a document to post, such as "Denny Cranes 10 Irresistible Reasons To Vote No" for instance or "Shiznit's 10 Reasons Auburn Wins The National Championship", just make it on Word.
Then when you go to save it not just to you computer but to your One Drive Personal on Word. If you haven't set up a Microsoft account you can do it from that point. Then once it's on your one drive account it's on the internet. Now you can go FILE -> SHARE -> and GET A SHARING LINK. Do the view only, so nobody messes with your stuff. Then bring that back here and post it.
If you really have problems with say one section, just save everything to a word document that you see here, chit chat, etc, and if you want to share it you can do just that. Could be helpful to someone who walks into a roadshow in the crew room.
Love,
FTB
Added more questions. Would love more, just PM me.
George?
BTW, if you wanted to create a document to post, such as "Denny Cranes 10 Irresistible Reasons To Vote No" for instance or "Shiznit's 10 Reasons Auburn Wins The National Championship", just make it on Word.
Then when you go to save it not just to you computer but to your One Drive Personal on Word. If you haven't set up a Microsoft account you can do it from that point. Then once it's on your one drive account it's on the internet. Now you can go FILE -> SHARE -> and GET A SHARING LINK. Do the view only, so nobody messes with your stuff. Then bring that back here and post it.
If you really have problems with say one section, just save everything to a word document that you see here, chit chat, etc, and if you want to share it you can do just that. Could be helpful to someone who walks into a roadshow in the crew room.
Love,
FTB
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-13-2015 at 01:01 PM.
06-13-2015, 12:48 PM
#8428
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: The New Delta
Posts: 115
I'm thinking this forum is a dangerous place. I've spent days glued to it, happy how many people (here) plan to vote no. I've talked with most of my Delta buddies, who all think the TA stinks (but not all of whom can vote).
Then, I go fly the line and 100% of the Captains I've flown with (1 of 1) say "The pay is pretty good...we won't get more if we go back, I'm probably a yes" (thence commenced much discussion and he was receptive to the alternative - or appeared to be so).
Based on my statistically insignificant friend pool, I think the younger guys are pretty on-board with voting this down. But what about the As??? Especially those who don't "waste their time" here...I'm worried that the resistance isn't more organized.
Then, I go fly the line and 100% of the Captains I've flown with (1 of 1) say "The pay is pretty good...we won't get more if we go back, I'm probably a yes" (thence commenced much discussion and he was receptive to the alternative - or appeared to be so).
Based on my statistically insignificant friend pool, I think the younger guys are pretty on-board with voting this down. But what about the As??? Especially those who don't "waste their time" here...I'm worried that the resistance isn't more organized.
I'm a solid no because I'm tired of the backward slide in work rules and I'm insulted by the sick leave verification.
Send this POS back! I'll keep what we have now
06-13-2015, 12:51 PM
#8429
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Well I don't remember every post so I asked you to list all the horribles that you see and you don't and then tell me I have blinders on. I have heard the same warnings of JV's taking all our flying yet international block hours are growing and the widebody fleet is growing.
Why is it growing? Maybe because we have the company over the barrel right now with the EASK metric. Again read Georgetq's last couple of posts.
This place always tries to invent the most horrific results and yet they never seem to occur. George was grossly wrong on 2012 so his predictive record does not impress me.
You can't just say he was wrong, you need to prove it. He supports his posts with factual articles.
The company paid us off for the 4 years they were out of compliance and it's not rational that they would then agree to some metric they can't hit after they paid us off. You wouldn't accept that deal. Taking the LHR stuff out is good because that is a growth market. I looked at the scope compliance stuff on the alpa site and if I knew how to attach it here I would. You can see that international block hours are going up. APC says the sky is falling, at some point you have cried wolf too much.
Why is it growing? Maybe because we have the company over the barrel right now with the EASK metric. Again read Georgetq's last couple of posts.
This place always tries to invent the most horrific results and yet they never seem to occur. George was grossly wrong on 2012 so his predictive record does not impress me.
You can't just say he was wrong, you need to prove it. He supports his posts with factual articles.
The company paid us off for the 4 years they were out of compliance and it's not rational that they would then agree to some metric they can't hit after they paid us off. You wouldn't accept that deal. Taking the LHR stuff out is good because that is a growth market. I looked at the scope compliance stuff on the alpa site and if I knew how to attach it here I would. You can see that international block hours are going up. APC says the sky is falling, at some point you have cried wolf too much.
I realize there is a lot of unrealistic scenarios being advanced, it's the realistic ones that scare me.
Denny
Last edited by Denny Crane; 06-13-2015 at 01:28 PM.
06-13-2015, 12:55 PM
#8430
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
I continue to caution any "us vs (fill in the blank)". Denny is one of those darn As as are lots of guys urging no votes.
During the bankruptcy years we had several suicides in both companies over, I understand, mostly money. Yes, there will be lots of low educated voters who will look only at the money. However, there will be lots of guys with problems outside their control and we need to separate the two.
Good thing I'm rich and can afford to vote NO
During the bankruptcy years we had several suicides in both companies over, I understand, mostly money. Yes, there will be lots of low educated voters who will look only at the money. However, there will be lots of guys with problems outside their control and we need to separate the two.
Good thing I'm rich and can afford to vote NO
Wish I was in the same boat!
Denny
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