Details on Delta TA
06-12-2015, 05:38 AM
#7941
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 24
Under the Railway Labor Act, our contracts do not 'expire', they become 'amendable'.
So once we pass by the Amendable Date (Jan. 1, 2016) we continue to operate under today's contract, WITH PROFIT SHARING UNTOUCHED, with 100% of trips dropped for IOE for F/O's, with no BS third party Sick Leave Verification, or any of the many other concessions in this T/A.
So once we pass by the Amendable Date (Jan. 1, 2016) we continue to operate under today's contract, WITH PROFIT SHARING UNTOUCHED, with 100% of trips dropped for IOE for F/O's, with no BS third party Sick Leave Verification, or any of the many other concessions in this T/A.
PLUS... there would still be pay raises to keep up with other industry contracts !
06-12-2015, 05:39 AM
#7942
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I say potentially because I'm being truthful. You have to look at worst case, not best case, in contract language.
06-12-2015, 05:42 AM
#7943
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
What does a historic, best airline contract in the world look like?
While everyone is whittling down their expectations and not reflecting on their surveys, I thought I would post what most here may have expected.
1. Untouched profit sharing.
2. 20% date of signing or AA+1 then cola
3. Teeth put into the upper end scope, not concessions and guaranteed shrinkage.
4. Paid health insurance
5. ERISA maximum 401k contribution paid by company catchup contributions paid by pilot.
6. International, night and per diem pay at the top of the industry.
7. Seniority bidding rights status quo
8. Trips touching vacation (FedEx has it - remember worlds greatest contract)
9. Etc
While you are arguing over scraps to try to retain your dignity, remember, pilots are fixers...you do not have to fix this or figure out how you can make it work...no matter what, you are not getting a red bull at the top of descent.
If you vote yes for this concessionary contract during the best negotiating environment you have ever seen, you cannot retain the dignity that you made the job/profession better...it doesn't work like that.
Voting yes on this is no different that eating food you just pulled out of the dumpster. Status quo is a ok by me.
While everyone is whittling down their expectations and not reflecting on their surveys, I thought I would post what most here may have expected.
1. Untouched profit sharing.
2. 20% date of signing or AA+1 then cola
3. Teeth put into the upper end scope, not concessions and guaranteed shrinkage.
4. Paid health insurance
5. ERISA maximum 401k contribution paid by company catchup contributions paid by pilot.
6. International, night and per diem pay at the top of the industry.
7. Seniority bidding rights status quo
8. Trips touching vacation (FedEx has it - remember worlds greatest contract)
9. Etc
While you are arguing over scraps to try to retain your dignity, remember, pilots are fixers...you do not have to fix this or figure out how you can make it work...no matter what, you are not getting a red bull at the top of descent.
If you vote yes for this concessionary contract during the best negotiating environment you have ever seen, you cannot retain the dignity that you made the job/profession better...it doesn't work like that.
Voting yes on this is no different that eating food you just pulled out of the dumpster. Status quo is a ok by me.
Instead we are looking at a huge stinking turd of a T/A that looks as if we were still in bankruptcy, or just about to enter!
06-12-2015, 05:48 AM
#7944
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
Our real leverage here is, when we vote this POS down, and we tell Wall Street that by sending us the turd, Richard Anderson put Labor Risk right back on the table. We will enjoy cashing our 20% profit sharing checks, enjoy our sick leave, enjoy our LCA trip drops, green slips, and all the other bennies he wanted us to give up, and all we lose is one 8% raise.
That's it.
That's all you lose.
Remember, the second raise, the 6% in Jan, is PAID FOR BY REDUCING OUR PROFIT SHARING! That's not a RAISE, that's a Swap. And you are giving up concessions in ever other area to get that 8%.
The second two 3% raises are barely going to keep up with inflation, and again, you have given up PROFIT SHARING AND CONCESSIONS to get that.
You F/O's ask yourselves if giving up 75% of the IOE trips drops is worth a 3% raise...
Not in my book, and I'm not even an F/O! That concession alone might keep you sitting in a lower paying seat a year or two longer, as fewer F/O's will be required in EVERY category, all the way up to the 777.
What's the pay differential from the right seat of the MD88 to the 767?
More than 3% I'll bet!
That's it.
That's all you lose.
Remember, the second raise, the 6% in Jan, is PAID FOR BY REDUCING OUR PROFIT SHARING! That's not a RAISE, that's a Swap. And you are giving up concessions in ever other area to get that 8%.
The second two 3% raises are barely going to keep up with inflation, and again, you have given up PROFIT SHARING AND CONCESSIONS to get that.
You F/O's ask yourselves if giving up 75% of the IOE trips drops is worth a 3% raise...
Not in my book, and I'm not even an F/O! That concession alone might keep you sitting in a lower paying seat a year or two longer, as fewer F/O's will be required in EVERY category, all the way up to the 777.
What's the pay differential from the right seat of the MD88 to the 767?
More than 3% I'll bet!
Last edited by Timbo; 06-12-2015 at 05:58 AM.
06-12-2015, 05:51 AM
#7945
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 40
Under the Railway Labor Act, our contracts do not 'expire', they become 'amendable'.
So once we pass by the Amendable Date (Jan. 1, 2016) we continue to operate under today's contract, WITH PROFIT SHARING UNTOUCHED, with 100% of trips dropped for IOE for F/O's, with no BS third party Sick Leave Verification, or any of the many other concessions in this T/A.
So once we pass by the Amendable Date (Jan. 1, 2016) we continue to operate under today's contract, WITH PROFIT SHARING UNTOUCHED, with 100% of trips dropped for IOE for F/O's, with no BS third party Sick Leave Verification, or any of the many other concessions in this T/A.
06-12-2015, 05:52 AM
#7946
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Our real leverage here is, when we vote this POS down, and we tell Wall Street that by sending us the turd, Richard Anderson put Labor Risk right back on the table. We will enjoy cashing our 20% profit sharing checks, enjoy our sick leave, enjoy our LCA trip drops, green slips, and all the other bennies he wanted us to give up, and all we lose is one 8% raise.
That's it.
That's all you lose.
Remember, the second raise, the 6% in Jan, is PAID FOR BY REDUCING OUR PROFIT SHARING! That's not a RAISE, that's a Swap. And you are giving up concessions in ever other area to get that 8%.
The second two 3% raises are barely going to keep up with inflation, and again, you have giving up PROFIT SHARING AND CONCESSIONS to get that.
You F/O's ask yourselves if giving up 75% of the IOE trips drops is worth a 3% raise...
Not in my book, and I'm not even an F/O!
That's it.
That's all you lose.
Remember, the second raise, the 6% in Jan, is PAID FOR BY REDUCING OUR PROFIT SHARING! That's not a RAISE, that's a Swap. And you are giving up concessions in ever other area to get that 8%.
The second two 3% raises are barely going to keep up with inflation, and again, you have giving up PROFIT SHARING AND CONCESSIONS to get that.
You F/O's ask yourselves if giving up 75% of the IOE trips drops is worth a 3% raise...
Not in my book, and I'm not even an F/O!
All we lose is an 8% raise.
Is an 8% raise worth all the other concessions? Concessions. Concessions!
That 8% raise goes away with down gauging...POOF...gone. You are left with concessions for life.
This contract is Herpes.
06-12-2015, 06:00 AM
#7948
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
What is mind boggling to me is, how did our MEC not see this coming?
It's the exact same playbook Management used in 2012, but Delta is earning BILLIONS more now!
But our Strategic Planning Committee had NO PLAN! NONE!
Bending over and getting spanked while shouting, "Thank you Sir, May I have another!" is not a plan for a Historic Contract!
06-12-2015, 06:13 AM
#7949
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Make no mistake, old guys are going to vote for this agreement.
Not all of course, but most. The older and closer to retirement they are, the more likely to vote yes. The reason is simple. They don't have enough years remaining to make up the difference if we pick a fight with management and get a better deal but its a year or two from now. Time value of money. An early deal. Etc. etc.
Delta management studies the demographics of the pilot group. This agreement is tailored to get a majority vote with the minimum required investment.
The younger captains and especially the first officers are outraged by this TA. As well they should be.
Young guys have a longer, more "career" perspective. The old timers just want a couple more years of cash and then they bail. Nothing wrong with that. Perfectly understandable. But management knows it too.
Not only do most of the concessions fall on younger guys but we are about to pass up an opportunity of a lifetime with this negotiating environment. We are NEVER going to have a better time to stand up to management and demand more money and more time off. NEVER going to have a better opportunity to recapture the buying power that an airline pilot used to command and do some things that would fundamentally improve the careers of Delta pilots for decades.
That's exactly what management is trying to prevent. And they've found a way to do it with this early TA.
Richard Anderson only has to get 51% of the line pilots. He doesn't have to worry about the union. He knows that ALPA has no interest in fighting. They have become a big fat Washington bureaucracy just like all the rest and they are scared of anything that might make too many waves. He told them "final offer" and that was it. They are done. They pass it to memrat and help Richard sell it.
Now we are seeing that sell job in full force. Aircraft orders contingent on the deal, ALPA strongly recommending we pass this, road shows, Notepads, etc. etc.
And those angry FOs and younger captains are going to get out-voted by old guys and the automatic yes voters.
The TA gets ratified. 54-46.
Unless-
06-12-2015, 06:19 AM
#7950
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Unless the automatic yes voters can be reached.
That's going to be the key in this battle. There are unfortunately a large number of Delta pilots who don't attend road shows, who certainly don't read this forum and who are barely aware that we have a new contract, let alone know what's in it.
They have busy lives and don't want to be bothered. Union politics bores them.
They figure they pay a lot of dues to ALPA to worry about all that stuff and they will do whatever ALPA recommends.
Those are the guys who have to be reached.
That's going to be the key in this battle. There are unfortunately a large number of Delta pilots who don't attend road shows, who certainly don't read this forum and who are barely aware that we have a new contract, let alone know what's in it.
They have busy lives and don't want to be bothered. Union politics bores them.
They figure they pay a lot of dues to ALPA to worry about all that stuff and they will do whatever ALPA recommends.
Those are the guys who have to be reached.
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