Details on Delta TA
06-12-2015, 05:19 AM
#7931
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
What does a historic, best airline contract in the world look like?
While everyone is whittling down their expectations and not reflecting on their surveys, I thought I would post what most here may have expected.
1. Untouched profit sharing.
2. 20% date of signing or AA+1 then cola
3. Teeth put into the upper end scope, not concessions and guaranteed shrinkage.
4. Paid health insurance
5. ERISA maximum 401k contribution paid by company catchup contributions paid by pilot.
6. International, night and per diem pay at the top of the industry.
7. Seniority bidding rights status quo
8. Trips touching vacation (FedEx has it - remember worlds greatest contract)
9. Etc
While you are arguing over scraps to try to retain your dignity, remember, pilots are fixers...you do not have to fix this or figure out how you can make it work...no matter what, you are not getting a red bull at the top of descent.
If you vote yes for this concessionary contract during the best negotiating environment you have ever seen, you cannot retain the dignity that you made the job/profession better...it doesn't work like that.
Voting yes on this is no different that eating food you just pulled out of the dumpster. Status quo is a ok by me.
While everyone is whittling down their expectations and not reflecting on their surveys, I thought I would post what most here may have expected.
1. Untouched profit sharing.
2. 20% date of signing or AA+1 then cola
3. Teeth put into the upper end scope, not concessions and guaranteed shrinkage.
4. Paid health insurance
5. ERISA maximum 401k contribution paid by company catchup contributions paid by pilot.
6. International, night and per diem pay at the top of the industry.
7. Seniority bidding rights status quo
8. Trips touching vacation (FedEx has it - remember worlds greatest contract)
9. Etc
While you are arguing over scraps to try to retain your dignity, remember, pilots are fixers...you do not have to fix this or figure out how you can make it work...no matter what, you are not getting a red bull at the top of descent.
If you vote yes for this concessionary contract during the best negotiating environment you have ever seen, you cannot retain the dignity that you made the job/profession better...it doesn't work like that.
Voting yes on this is no different that eating food you just pulled out of the dumpster. Status quo is a ok by me.
06-12-2015, 05:22 AM
#7932
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 40
section 6 question: once we pass the amendable date, are both sides still bound by the terms of the previous contract?
Specifically, can the company elect to not pay profit sharing in 2016 if we are still under C2012?
If they tried to withhold on that, or if we had to sue them to get them to pay it, that would be a helluva harassment tactic. Theres a lot of dudes that wouldn't have the stomach for that...
Specifically, can the company elect to not pay profit sharing in 2016 if we are still under C2012?
If they tried to withhold on that, or if we had to sue them to get them to pay it, that would be a helluva harassment tactic. Theres a lot of dudes that wouldn't have the stomach for that...
06-12-2015, 05:24 AM
#7933
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
C'mon get real. We're not gonna fly a C-152 across the Atlantic. But... What if they decide we were right about Delta Private Jets and they should be flown by Delta pilots. One private jet = A-380. I know it's a stretch, but the EASK was hard sold as a huge advantage to Delta Pilots. The DALPA spin machine did such a good job convincing me why the EASK with the JV was good for us. I'm sticking with that decision.
06-12-2015, 05:28 AM
#7934
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 795
ER,
Everyone has their cause. In my case, I'm not all that upset about converting PS to wages. I am unhappy that the increase on 1/1/16 is not a pure pay raise. I don't think it should have been a quid pro quo. Rather, it should have been placed on top of raises. I'm not really into self-funding. I'm unhappy, but I could live with it.
What really disturbs me more is top and bottom scope concessions, R&I concessions, significant work rule concessions, heinous sick leave concessions and that stinking .05 per diem increase.
I'm disturbed that the Company is dangling shiny new aircraft.
I'm disturbed that the ratification period is so compressed. That makes me wonder what we are missing in the big picture.
I keep asking myself, Where's the fire? What's the big rush?
Profit Sharing removes the TVM issue. In my judgment, in this current business environment, this contract shouldn't have contained these sorts of concessions.
Everyone has their cause. In my case, I'm not all that upset about converting PS to wages. I am unhappy that the increase on 1/1/16 is not a pure pay raise. I don't think it should have been a quid pro quo. Rather, it should have been placed on top of raises. I'm not really into self-funding. I'm unhappy, but I could live with it.
What really disturbs me more is top and bottom scope concessions, R&I concessions, significant work rule concessions, heinous sick leave concessions and that stinking .05 per diem increase.
I'm disturbed that the Company is dangling shiny new aircraft.
I'm disturbed that the ratification period is so compressed. That makes me wonder what we are missing in the big picture.
I keep asking myself, Where's the fire? What's the big rush?
Profit Sharing removes the TVM issue. In my judgment, in this current business environment, this contract shouldn't have contained these sorts of concessions.
06-12-2015, 05:30 AM
#7935
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,614
If you are talking about unverified sick leave, this POS TA is also 14 days. You need a note from mom on day 15 subject to review by the company Health Administrator (or some crap like that). Currently, we have 100 hours unverified sick leave available without a 1 and/or 3 year look back.
06-12-2015, 05:31 AM
#7936
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
section 6 question: once we pass the amendable date, are both sides still bound by the terms of the previous contract?
Specifically, can the company elect to not pay profit sharing in 2016 if we are still under C2012?
If they tried to withhold on that, or if we had to sue them to get them to pay it, that would be a helluva harassment tactic. Theres a lot of dudes that wouldn't have the stomach for that...
Specifically, can the company elect to not pay profit sharing in 2016 if we are still under C2012?
If they tried to withhold on that, or if we had to sue them to get them to pay it, that would be a helluva harassment tactic. Theres a lot of dudes that wouldn't have the stomach for that...
So once we pass by the Amendable Date (Jan. 1, 2016) we continue to operate under today's contract, WITH PROFIT SHARING UNTOUCHED, with 100% of trips dropped for IOE for F/O's, with no BS third party Sick Leave Verification, or any of the many other concessions in this T/A.
06-12-2015, 05:33 AM
#7937
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
I'm okay with my name on there.
I don't think those on FPL posting have an evil agenda. I think they're trying to get the facts out there. That said, they don't have all the angles figured out on this complicated TA.
I know what you're saying about "this environment". I think that too but I also look at APPL with 1/5 of a trillion in the bank and printing money and their employees are paid what they're worth. They're not all getting 100% raises. There is not a 1:1 correlation with profit to pay raise. We're not going to get pay rates 15% more than American plus a profit sharing check for 20%.
I don't think those on FPL posting have an evil agenda. I think they're trying to get the facts out there. That said, they don't have all the angles figured out on this complicated TA.
I know what you're saying about "this environment". I think that too but I also look at APPL with 1/5 of a trillion in the bank and printing money and their employees are paid what they're worth. They're not all getting 100% raises. There is not a 1:1 correlation with profit to pay raise. We're not going to get pay rates 15% more than American plus a profit sharing check for 20%.
There are other forms of "gains" besides hourly rates.
06-12-2015, 05:33 AM
#7938
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
The current policy has provisions for optional verification during the first 100 hours, so you can keep the 100 unverified rolling along. You can verify on your own for the first 80 hours and have 100 unverified left to use. This TA has no provision for optional verification to protect the unverified sick leave. I would rather submit a note from my Doctor for the Bronchitis or the sprained ankle AT MY OPTION and keep the unverified for the more embarrassing illnesses. If that embarrassing personal matter shows up on day 15 under this contract, they look at EVERYTHING.
06-12-2015, 05:33 AM
#7939
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,418
Have you crunched the numbers on EASK to Block Hours? You may not be an ER flyer for long if that one gets through. AF/KLM can up gauge to A380s while we replace the 757 with 737-900ER. We are in the process of down gauging from 747-400 to A-330/A-350. Block Hour ratio could work in place of EASK, but needs to be 60/40 in favor of Delta, not 50/50.
Those who point to our large orders for A-330 and A-350 as a way to up gauge from our ER fleet forget that the 25 A-330 NEOs arrive AFTER the term of this TA. The first A-350 doesn't show up until well into TA 2015.
Those who point to our large orders for A-330 and A-350 as a way to up gauge from our ER fleet forget that the 25 A-330 NEOs arrive AFTER the term of this TA. The first A-350 doesn't show up until well into TA 2015.
06-12-2015, 05:36 AM
#7940
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
The current policy has provisions for optional verification during the first 100 hours, so you can keep the 100 unverified rolling along. You can verify on your own for the first 80 hours and have 100 unverified left to use. This TA has no provision for optional verification to protect the unverified sick leave. I would rather submit a note from my Doctor for the Bronchitis or the sprained ankle AT MY OPTION and keep the unverified for the more embarrassing illnesses. If that embarrassing personal matter shows up on day 15 under this contract, they look at EVERYTHING.
But, there are other illnesses and injuries where I do need to see a Dr., like when I stepped on glass at the beach and needed 5 stitches in my foot and couldn't put my work shoe on that foot for two weeks, where I did verify, even though I was well below 100hrs.
Under the new plan, you can't verify anything, unless they demand it, until you run over 14 work days (which at 5:15/dy is only 73:30, not today's 100hrs.) and then you will need to verify EVERY sickness. And the T/A has the lookback, which is another concession.
This T/A is so full of concessions you would think we were going bankrupt again!
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