Details on Delta TA
06-11-2015, 08:45 AM
#7712
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
OK so what block hour percentage are we currently flying in the AF/KLM JV right now?
51
Because we are supposed to be flying 50% already, although we got rolled when we allowed 50% to be defined as 48.5%.
Those are the EASKs.
Where does the 67% block hour number come from then? Even if thats with VA added in, the split with VA would have to be enormous (and in our favor) to put the entire trans Atlantic at that number.
OK. I think this is where people get confused. We have 67% because that includes the Delta UK flying. AF/KLM doesn't fly London to the US. That's why our share seems to be overstated. Don't ask me why, but "Bundle 1" in the AF/KLM JV agreement included Delta flights to the UK.
Right now we currently fly 67% block hours and that is beause of the EASK measurement methodology.
That's correct, But since the last AF/KLM JV we now have a Virgin Atlantic deal as well. The new language takes London out of the formula for AF/KLM. It has been overcome by events since the purchase of Virgin Atlantic and our deal with them.
If we abandon EASK and only go for a pernamant 49/51 reset (in management's favor, once again…WTH by the way?) then how low can our 67% go, including AF/KLM and VA total?
They didn't give that number because Paris and Amsterdam are now completely separated from London. Two different deals. The 67 is now not really relevant. That makes sense. I understand why they did it.
Your point is well taken though. If we did calculate the number, it would be lower. We have given management yet another pretty large scope concession.
51
Because we are supposed to be flying 50% already, although we got rolled when we allowed 50% to be defined as 48.5%.
Those are the EASKs.
Where does the 67% block hour number come from then? Even if thats with VA added in, the split with VA would have to be enormous (and in our favor) to put the entire trans Atlantic at that number.
OK. I think this is where people get confused. We have 67% because that includes the Delta UK flying. AF/KLM doesn't fly London to the US. That's why our share seems to be overstated. Don't ask me why, but "Bundle 1" in the AF/KLM JV agreement included Delta flights to the UK.
Right now we currently fly 67% block hours and that is beause of the EASK measurement methodology.
That's correct, But since the last AF/KLM JV we now have a Virgin Atlantic deal as well. The new language takes London out of the formula for AF/KLM. It has been overcome by events since the purchase of Virgin Atlantic and our deal with them.
If we abandon EASK and only go for a pernamant 49/51 reset (in management's favor, once again…WTH by the way?) then how low can our 67% go, including AF/KLM and VA total?
They didn't give that number because Paris and Amsterdam are now completely separated from London. Two different deals. The 67 is now not really relevant. That makes sense. I understand why they did it.
Your point is well taken though. If we did calculate the number, it would be lower. We have given management yet another pretty large scope concession.
Here's the bottom line apples to apples numbers from the scope briefing:
These are ALPA's numbers.
For AF/KLM-
Current book -- we are supposed to be at 53% of block hours.
Management's only been flying 51%. Thus the grievance win.
The new contract allows them to go down to 49%.
Virgin Atlantic and London are now completely separate.
That JV remains unchanged. (although don't get me started on whether it has been good for us)
06-11-2015, 08:48 AM
#7713
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Because of the loss of LCA trips alone! Do you know how many LCA trips there are in most catagories? Worth at least the 8% pay raise alone! Don't let the dog and pony show fool you-- they'll say only a handful are affected... Hell even reps that voted no say that--because they haven't researched it yet. All those lost trips trickle down folks.It will affect every FO substantially with trip seniority and progression and Greenslips will dry up like the martian soil. Spread the word! U just can't accept this TA if you are an FO.
Carl
06-11-2015, 08:48 AM
#7714
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 330B
Posts: 2
First time poster. In my 28 years in this business I cannot think of a bigger disappointment than this TA. In this negotiating environment this is truly astounding.
We can all sit around debating the worst aspects of this debacle or do like Carl suggested and get busy cleaning house. The MEC must be purged and any yes voting reps recalled.
Get busy. Oh-and send in your renewed DPA card in case all else fails.
We can all sit around debating the worst aspects of this debacle or do like Carl suggested and get busy cleaning house. The MEC must be purged and any yes voting reps recalled.
Get busy. Oh-and send in your renewed DPA card in case all else fails.
06-11-2015, 08:50 AM
#7715
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
That is the issue!
This agreement has the potential to redefine DALs (EASK) share to go to roughly 35% compared to today. If we refleeted to smaller long range planes, it could go lower than that.
This is how you dismantle Delta Air lines. What's the next shoe? Codeshare with emirates, etihad, or Qatar? If this passes, expect to be even more of a domestic airline.
This agreement has the potential to redefine DALs (EASK) share to go to roughly 35% compared to today. If we refleeted to smaller long range planes, it could go lower than that.
This is how you dismantle Delta Air lines. What's the next shoe? Codeshare with emirates, etihad, or Qatar? If this passes, expect to be even more of a domestic airline.
Carl
06-11-2015, 08:51 AM
#7716
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
this^^^^^^^^^ right^^^^^^^^^^^ here^^^^^^^^^^^^
06-11-2015, 08:52 AM
#7717
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 341
I just can't get my brain wrapped around why this was not pushed back...but I really can't understand why ANY FO rep would have even thought about a yes. It hurts all but on the FO side it is complete B.S.. I feel completely betrayed.
Carl it's time to order the Code Reds!
Carl it's time to order the Code Reds!
06-11-2015, 08:54 AM
#7718
Senior by choice
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 427
It is definitely time for the torches and pitchforks.
Those that are using Tim Caplinger as an excuse not to send in a DPA card are just using that as a crutch for their inaction or fear of challenging ALPA. He has repeatedly stated he is not going to run for DPA office. His job is to get the DPA to representation vote.
Those that are using Tim Caplinger as an excuse not to send in a DPA card are just using that as a crutch for their inaction or fear of challenging ALPA. He has repeatedly stated he is not going to run for DPA office. His job is to get the DPA to representation vote.
06-11-2015, 08:55 AM
#7719
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 489
06-11-2015, 09:00 AM
#7720
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 22
You and I used to agree about DPA and no need for other representation. After reviewing this TA, I've changed my mind. I feel that the current DALPA administration is out of touch with it's members and we need to look at other options.
I'm not an "all or nothing"/"my way or the highway" kind of guy. I'm not trying to send a message to DALPA. I don't know TC except for what I've heard second hand.
My new and unexpected DPA card is in the mailbox. I'm not emotional or PO'd. I just want to open up a discussion about who best represents Delta pilots and our future. It doesn't mean that I will vote for DPA, but I will listen to what they have to say. The biggest part of my decision will be based on leadership. If TC is part of the equation then so it goes. I do respect your opinion and will want to know where you stand. It will be up to DPA to make their case.
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