Details on Delta TA
06-09-2015, 05:22 PM
#6881
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,169
This is all moot if the reps don't ratify it. We'll see tomorrow if they even get through all the material - which they had barely begun to do this afternoon by 6pm...
06-09-2015, 05:26 PM
#6882
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
I don't know how this is locking in more mainline flying. These 100-seaters could be growth, but I'd place my bets on them being replacements for MDs, 320s, and maybe even a few 73s. Meanwhile, we allow 25 more aircraft with DAL paint but not DAL pilots.
It's a concession.
It's a concession.
06-09-2015, 05:28 PM
#6883
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 463
For those who haven't followed the marketing material being disseminated on Twitter/Facebook, here are some of nuggets you will likely hear over and over below.
Notice as you read through FB and Twitter, hardly one iota mentioning downside. Just cherry picking and putting some nice spin. Sorry to use this word but it's DB at it's worst and the wrong way for a respectable union to lead.
Do the words of Mike Donatelli reconcile with the TA you are seeing? Are his words accurate and honest? Or are they just marketing hype similar to what Ford and Harrison would put out? Does anybody honestly think this TA in any way resembles the input given through the contract survey? How about the fear of what will happen if we don't accept what was offered? This is not leadership. This is the mouthpiece of management.
MD: Opportunity. I have said it many times. Opportunity to once and for all, turn the corner and never look back,makes certain our futures.
MD: The best combination of Pay rates and Profit Sharing, The Best Scope. The Best work rules. All at a growing airline. A growing mainline.
MD: (see chart) While there are lots of stories here, the main takeaway is that we must GET…and STAY…synched to our airline.
MD: From the JCBA to Contract 2012, we stayed true to our mission…to find value anywhere, anyhow…to keep the raises coming.
MD: We formulated a strategic plan. We asked our pilots about a new contract. Your reps put the plan in motion.
MD: We have a deal on the table. A contract that sets a new standard. Raises the bar across the board. Pushes beyond Industry Leading.
MD: Restoration? How about Resurgent? A resurgence of the Delta Pilots and a resurgence of the profession.
MD:You told us what you wanted in surveys&on the phone.You told us that you like the direction we’re going together.You said “Keep it Going”
MD: Contract 2012 delivered on what it was supposed to do…to increase pay and job opportunities for the Delta pilots.
MD: So back to present day…This Deal on the table is so much more that 2012. Imagine what this will mean to Delta pilots and their families.
MD: I often hear the terms “Member Driven”, and “Bottoms Up” when describing what we do. Well, it’s time to Walk the Walk, not Talk the Talk
MD: To be perfectly clear, These are mature negotiations in which we pulled every trigger, fired every bullet, to deliver every last penny.
MD: The idea that we can simple resume negotiations…go back to the table and pick up where we left off is a fallacy. It simply won’t happen.
MD: The next step if we can’t move forward right here and right now is to step back and prepare for a long slog with the NMB....
MD:.... Just like FedEx. Just like Southwest. Our fate will be in the government’s hands.
MEC: The 14.48% pay raise can be viewed as an 8.74% pay raise + a 5.74% conversion of “at-risk” profit sharing into a “no-risk” increase in pay
MEC: This converted 5.74% of variable compensation to fixed compensation in hourly pay rates - assumes DAL achieves $6.0+ billion every year...
MEC: The TA maintained no cap on profit sharing.
MD:This TA will redefine getting PAID as an airline pilot. Before any change to profit sharing, it is ABOVE C2K Rates"
TOTALLY MEANINGLESS and an insult to the intelligence of our pilot group.
Notice as you read through FB and Twitter, hardly one iota mentioning downside. Just cherry picking and putting some nice spin. Sorry to use this word but it's DB at it's worst and the wrong way for a respectable union to lead.
Do the words of Mike Donatelli reconcile with the TA you are seeing? Are his words accurate and honest? Or are they just marketing hype similar to what Ford and Harrison would put out? Does anybody honestly think this TA in any way resembles the input given through the contract survey? How about the fear of what will happen if we don't accept what was offered? This is not leadership. This is the mouthpiece of management.
MD: Opportunity. I have said it many times. Opportunity to once and for all, turn the corner and never look back,makes certain our futures.
MD: The best combination of Pay rates and Profit Sharing, The Best Scope. The Best work rules. All at a growing airline. A growing mainline.
MD: (see chart) While there are lots of stories here, the main takeaway is that we must GET…and STAY…synched to our airline.
MD: From the JCBA to Contract 2012, we stayed true to our mission…to find value anywhere, anyhow…to keep the raises coming.
MD: We formulated a strategic plan. We asked our pilots about a new contract. Your reps put the plan in motion.
MD: We have a deal on the table. A contract that sets a new standard. Raises the bar across the board. Pushes beyond Industry Leading.
MD: Restoration? How about Resurgent? A resurgence of the Delta Pilots and a resurgence of the profession.
MD:You told us what you wanted in surveys&on the phone.You told us that you like the direction we’re going together.You said “Keep it Going”
MD: Contract 2012 delivered on what it was supposed to do…to increase pay and job opportunities for the Delta pilots.
MD: So back to present day…This Deal on the table is so much more that 2012. Imagine what this will mean to Delta pilots and their families.
MD: I often hear the terms “Member Driven”, and “Bottoms Up” when describing what we do. Well, it’s time to Walk the Walk, not Talk the Talk
MD: To be perfectly clear, These are mature negotiations in which we pulled every trigger, fired every bullet, to deliver every last penny.
MD: The idea that we can simple resume negotiations…go back to the table and pick up where we left off is a fallacy. It simply won’t happen.
MD: The next step if we can’t move forward right here and right now is to step back and prepare for a long slog with the NMB....
MD:.... Just like FedEx. Just like Southwest. Our fate will be in the government’s hands.
MEC: The 14.48% pay raise can be viewed as an 8.74% pay raise + a 5.74% conversion of “at-risk” profit sharing into a “no-risk” increase in pay
MEC: This converted 5.74% of variable compensation to fixed compensation in hourly pay rates - assumes DAL achieves $6.0+ billion every year...
MEC: The TA maintained no cap on profit sharing.
MD:This TA will redefine getting PAID as an airline pilot. Before any change to profit sharing, it is ABOVE C2K Rates"
TOTALLY MEANINGLESS and an insult to the intelligence of our pilot group.
Last edited by EdGrimley; 06-09-2015 at 05:41 PM.
06-09-2015, 05:30 PM
#6884
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Similar to what 80 said, I had our codeshare committee chairman explain that part to me earlier. I highly respect his opinion as he has lived these numbers in greater detail that I ever want to - by "not so bad" I meant that it seemed more or less the same result as what we currently have, just a different metric to measure the same flying. Part of the rationale was that as we upguage to 330's from ER's some of the EASK deficit would go away, and also something about how we augment and the euros don't. I'm not willing to write that section off until I understand it better.
This is all moot if the reps don't ratify it. We'll see tomorrow if they even get through all the material - which they had barely begun to do this afternoon by 6pm...
This is all moot if the reps don't ratify it. We'll see tomorrow if they even get through all the material - which they had barely begun to do this afternoon by 6pm...
06-09-2015, 05:31 PM
#6885
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: M88 B
Posts: 399
You saying a 19% increase by 2017. Please do not forget we give up 117 million in PS. That happens in 2016. The soft money given back to the company in the form of work rule changes should more than offset any soft money gains too us. Very little to be excited about.
06-09-2015, 05:32 PM
#6887
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
06-09-2015, 05:32 PM
#6888
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
Posts: 1,410
It was interesting what rumors came true and didn't.. pay banding (well the 350 pays the same as the whale that it's replacing as it should), green slip gone, and a lot of the other stuff didn't make it. Sick leave was in there, and the pay rates with traded PS were pretty dang close.
It was cool seeing all the APC types there today!
I went into this with fairly low expectations. They didn't disappoint me in that regard. Ideally, I want to be able to vote yes for an early deal.
Likes:
--Pay is... ok. It's another base hit, nothing more, and I don't mind the logic in trading profit sharing. (It's an airline, for petes sake... we're in the business of not making profit)
--Scope improvements- further locking in more mainline flying (despite allowing up to 25 more 76 seaters), tightened JV compliance window, and I agree with keeping VA out of the trans-atlantic metric, Republic carveout gone
--Individual vacation days
--Improved fragmentation language
--Hotels for newhires
Meh:
--Sick leave.... nothing good, nothing really worse than we have now.
Dislikes:
--TATL JV metric changed from equivalent seat kms to pilot block hours. That is a BIG deal- that means AF can add A380s on routes and that is considered the same as a 757 (or A321 in the future). With ESKs if they dropped an A380 onto a route, that was 2 767s that we had to add. The illustrious Bucking Bar tried to explain how this wasn't a bad thing, but it never hit home with me.
--Seattle STILL not a hub....
--TLV (transitive line value) max adjusted from 80 hours to 81 hours. Bye bye 100+ pilot jobs with that one.
--And this one may be the deal breaker for me: LCA trip buyoffs for OE. Up to 75% of trips that LCAs bid for will be pulled out of the FO's pot for bidding. That is a complete abrogation of seniority and totally screws up any FO bids of any seniority.
Take out the LCA thing and I'm probably a yes vote... I'm really having a hard time getting over that, though. That to me is something it may be worth it to send it back through the spin cycle another time.
Oh, and SharpestTool is taking a few days of vacation to see if he can play more nicely. If not, he can go the way of Lumberg.
It was cool seeing all the APC types there today!
I went into this with fairly low expectations. They didn't disappoint me in that regard. Ideally, I want to be able to vote yes for an early deal.
Likes:
--Pay is... ok. It's another base hit, nothing more, and I don't mind the logic in trading profit sharing. (It's an airline, for petes sake... we're in the business of not making profit)
--Scope improvements- further locking in more mainline flying (despite allowing up to 25 more 76 seaters), tightened JV compliance window, and I agree with keeping VA out of the trans-atlantic metric, Republic carveout gone
--Individual vacation days
--Improved fragmentation language
--Hotels for newhires
Meh:
--Sick leave.... nothing good, nothing really worse than we have now.
Dislikes:
--TATL JV metric changed from equivalent seat kms to pilot block hours. That is a BIG deal- that means AF can add A380s on routes and that is considered the same as a 757 (or A321 in the future). With ESKs if they dropped an A380 onto a route, that was 2 767s that we had to add. The illustrious Bucking Bar tried to explain how this wasn't a bad thing, but it never hit home with me.
--Seattle STILL not a hub....
--TLV (transitive line value) max adjusted from 80 hours to 81 hours. Bye bye 100+ pilot jobs with that one.
--And this one may be the deal breaker for me: LCA trip buyoffs for OE. Up to 75% of trips that LCAs bid for will be pulled out of the FO's pot for bidding. That is a complete abrogation of seniority and totally screws up any FO bids of any seniority.
Take out the LCA thing and I'm probably a yes vote... I'm really having a hard time getting over that, though. That to me is something it may be worth it to send it back through the spin cycle another time.
Oh, and SharpestTool is taking a few days of vacation to see if he can play more nicely. If not, he can go the way of Lumberg.
Again...why are we even negotiating to trade scope for new small narrow bodies. If the company needs them, they will get them.
We help fix their self imposed DCI problems AGAIN with more large Rjs
06-09-2015, 05:40 PM
#6889
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: Bounty Hunter
Posts: 22
PS is worthless
The top 10 analyst in the US with decades of credibility are all saying the economic crash will occur between Oct 2015 and Jul 2016. To include a currency reset.
Don't you all get it, the profit sharing is toast. There won't be any profit sharing for years.
You need to send this back and negotiate hard dollars.
12-10-6-6 at minimum.
Read my lips....there will be NO profit sharing.
Analysts today and yesterday started down grading the airlines.
Can anybody understand we haven't even got to 2004 contract.
VOTE NO
Don't let the 60% weenies get this TA by.
The dalpa are robots. They will start their games by calling everyone within minutes of a post to sell youth BS just like they did last contract.
I was called twice within minutes of 2 post.
Don't fall for this BS.
VOTE NO
Tell your rep they will be recalled if they vote for this crap.
Don't you all get it, the profit sharing is toast. There won't be any profit sharing for years.
You need to send this back and negotiate hard dollars.
12-10-6-6 at minimum.
Read my lips....there will be NO profit sharing.
Analysts today and yesterday started down grading the airlines.
Can anybody understand we haven't even got to 2004 contract.
VOTE NO
Don't let the 60% weenies get this TA by.
The dalpa are robots. They will start their games by calling everyone within minutes of a post to sell youth BS just like they did last contract.
I was called twice within minutes of 2 post.
Don't fall for this BS.
VOTE NO
Tell your rep they will be recalled if they vote for this crap.
06-09-2015, 05:44 PM
#6890
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
One of the good things out of this is everyone now knowing who has been trying to BS everyone. Although there's a lot of disappointment here, I'd just ask everyone to reflect on whether they are truly surprised or not. I maintain that deep down, you knew this would happen. The evidence has always been right there. As soon as Donatelli started renaming profit sharing as "at risk compensation", you knew what was about to happen...despite all the usual suspects claiming it would never happen because Richard said he's commited to keeping profit sharing. Same with the sick leave evidence and the scope/JV evidence.
My hope is that we will now use our logical minds instead of our hopes and beliefs that our union is looking out for us. We can't continue to ignore evidence or our logical minds will fail us due to being overruled by what we so hope for. Remember when the MEC made the case that changing JV measuring metrics from block hours to EASK's was necessary to preserve jobs? It made sense. It made so much sense, the company refused to comply with it. Now after having signed off on the grievance for 30 million, the TA now reverts back to block hours...exactly opposite of the MEC's case when the JV was first signed. Both can't be right. Somebody's lying. You already know who is lying from the evidence.
This is but one example. There are many others. Pay attention to your own logical minds. You've survived in aviation as long as you have because you used it.
Carl
My hope is that we will now use our logical minds instead of our hopes and beliefs that our union is looking out for us. We can't continue to ignore evidence or our logical minds will fail us due to being overruled by what we so hope for. Remember when the MEC made the case that changing JV measuring metrics from block hours to EASK's was necessary to preserve jobs? It made sense. It made so much sense, the company refused to comply with it. Now after having signed off on the grievance for 30 million, the TA now reverts back to block hours...exactly opposite of the MEC's case when the JV was first signed. Both can't be right. Somebody's lying. You already know who is lying from the evidence.
This is but one example. There are many others. Pay attention to your own logical minds. You've survived in aviation as long as you have because you used it.
Carl
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